00:00 Welcome to another episode of the We Have a Meeting podcast. Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome Philippa and Penelope to the podcast. I think everyone listening is going to get so much out of this one. We were just saying, I think we could probably talk for five hours. Sadly, we don't have that. But yeah, I can't wait to get into this one. So, Philippa and Penelope, thank you both so much for being here. I always start this podcast off the exact same way. So who are you and what problem do you solve?

00:31 Okay, well, I'm Philippa Waller. I'm Penelope Waller. And first of all, I'd love to say it's great to be here. It's great to meet you both. Absolutely. So and in a way, because your names are rhymes, we've sort of got a double double act going on today, haven't we? With Philippa and Penelope. Double double. it's a real pleasure. So we run our own business. We're identical twins. That's the first thing to say, who had very different initial career paths. And we've

01:01 somehow come together about 10, 11, 12 years ago and we run our own leadership development and communication skills company for dehuman beings. So I will say and then you can sort of say your own version of it. Who am I? I am a human being, hopefully as often as possible, a 4D human being. We'll talk about what that even means.

01:25 The problem that I hope I solve in the world at a really fundamental level is to help individuals have far more choice about how they show up in the world, how they communicate, and how they can be the author of the path of their own lives. And I do that through our business and I'm also a psychotherapist, so I have a clinical practice as well. Pen, you might want to add to that. Yes, so my name's Penelope or Pen, people very often call me.

01:54 I have a background in business originally, then moved into psychology, now work with Philippa at 40 Human Being. What problem do I solve? Well, I do very often say to our clients that we run training programs and coaching and we do keynotes and conferences. We are all about communication, leadership, and we do that in many different ways. But if you ask me why I do what I do and what problem I solve, for me,

02:21 It's about a couple of things. It's about helping people to be much more awake and aware of the experience of life that they're having and creating. And secondly, it's really about when those curve balls or difficult situations come into our lives, it's being well prepared to respond to those in a way that's gonna build a path for the rest of our life that we want rather than perhaps...

02:46 Yeah, finding those, those curveballs a bit challenging and ending up in a place emotionally and practically that isn't exactly the life we, we dreamt of. So that's, that's why I do what I do and hopefully some problems that I solve. It might be a good time for me to sort of put the cherry on the icing on the cake. What one of our sayings that really sits at the heart of what we do and is really important for us in terms of our own lives and the work that we do and with our other co-director, Matt Beresford is

03:13 are you happening to the world or is the world happening to you? And if you keep coming back to that phrase or that question, it's a really good touchstone to see whether you're being shaped by who others want you to be, who others think you are, what's expected of you, or whether you are stepping forward and happening to the world in a different way. So that might sum it up in a philosophy, if you like. Wow. I love that. I love that. It reminds me of a...

03:43 and in-law that I have, I won't say who it is, who has that sort of personality where it's hot outside, isn't it? I know it's awful, isn't it? It's cold outside. Oh, it's awful, isn't it? And it's that feeling of like, everything's just kind of smashing against, so I love that. Typically, if you were doctors and your clients were patients, what symptoms have they got that makes it worthwhile having a conversation with you in the first place?

04:13 Yeah. First of all, I love these questions. I think I'm going to steal these analogies, that's where I draw some of my coaching clients. I've stolen two. It's all about sharing. Yeah. So as a doctor, I think I'm going to slightly, I'm going to answer this in two slightly different ways, because from a business perspective, when we're working with business clients, leaders and teams and organizations, if I was to diagnose which

04:43 I'm slightly wary of that word as a psychotherapist because labels can be useful, but also sometimes not so much. So we have to be bit careful around them. what would I, you what would be the ailment that I would wanting, be wanting to help with? And it ranges for us right from wellbeing. So stress and burnout and people who are often

05:09 not able to say no and absolutely overwhelmed in a culture that is pushing so hard all the time. And for us, that is right at the kind of the underbelly, know, under the bonnet or the hood, if you like, for those listening in America are experiencing. And that's often one to one work. And they're right through to teams that aren't working well together, leaders that can't motivate or communicate well, cultures that are either

05:38 lacking in energy or motivation or a kind of toxic positivity where they have to sort of pretend that everything's fine, but there's stuff going on. And for us, we've got very clear behavioral tools to sort of diagnose if you're like, what's going on here? And how can we in a really safe way get people connected and talking and intentional around their communication and managing the old ego.

06:04 in a really healthy way, so that we have the courage to have those conversations. And talking to what you mentioned earlier, we have the courage to step forward and make choices that are going to work for us and for others around us as well. Yeah. Would you add to that? Well, the only thing I would add is I think the doctor analogy is so interesting, because the work that we do is multi-dimensional. And by that, mean that we can often as human beings, we can get lost in the intellect, lost in the brain and try and...

06:31 think our way through problems. And whilst that's really useful, we like to think also about the other dimensions that we have as human beings, two of which are the emotional and the physical dimension. I'm sure we'll get on to the fourth dimension at some point. But the other two dimensions, the emotional and the physical, because the physical is so interesting in terms of that doctor analogy and lots of the work that we do pulls back to all of those dimensions, including the physical, both in terms of awareness. Your body is an amazing sensor.

06:57 to give you some information about how you're feeling about something or what's going on. And we're not always brilliant at listening to our bodies. That's the first thing. And the second thing is your body as an incredible tool to change both your emotional state, but also change the state and the impact on other people. We really underestimate the physical. So we use all of those dimensions. And I'm now going to start thinking of myself as a bit of a doctor, so thanks.

07:25 We talk a lot about energy plus intention equals impact as a really foundational equation. The energy level that you're using, the intention that you're setting, and that could be one word of support versus motivation versus challenge. You're going to have a very, very different impact. And when you energize those thoughts, those intentions, that is the impact you're going to make. And you have so much control over that.

07:49 And just to loop back, because I said, I'm going to answer that question in two ways. If I think about it from a therapeutic way, a lot of the work that I and many people are doing in therapy is to help us really own, become much more aware and accepting of all those different parts of us. And where that becomes really crucial with making our own decisions, as you say, people who want to kind of go on that adventure, start that business, is identifying those inner saboteurs or the parts of us that

08:19 don't feel good enough or are insecure or I'm not the kind of person that would ever do that or who do I think I am or it's never gonna work. And having a really different internal dialogue with them. So far more intentional around that internal work as well that we recognize those parts of us. And we always talk about who's driving the bus. And for us at 40 Human Being, it's you wanna get your fourth dimension, your intention driving the bus.

08:46 not one of those emotional dimensions always. It's fine on a roller coaster, let your emotional dimension, you know, have a ride, but that's not always helpful to us when we're in- Driving the bus of life. Exactly, driving the bus of life. Because if we think about someone's just been really mean to us or somebody's maybe even suggested that we won't be able to make those dreams come true and we let that shame or that fear drive the bus, then if you imagine that-

09:11 little person driving the bus, white knuckled, terrified, that's not going to get you where you want to go. So you've got to pop them in the back seat, give them a chocolate bar and say, my intentional dimension is driving this bus. I know that there's some fear in here. I'm good with that. We're still going. And that is for us, just everything that we care about in life and of course, work and life, it's personal and professional. We are human beings in every domain, aren't we?

09:38 Like you say, it's the family members as much as it's your team members. It's all the same dynamics at play. love this. I love this already. It makes me think about like when you talk about intention, like, I feel like I see a lot of like non playable characters walking through life, you know, like on like a video game. And it's like they're being driven, like the analogy there about who's driving the bus is great. But like other people are kind of, they're not aware, they're not awake. And it's like, how do have that intention behind it? So I'm loving this. think

10:07 You said something earlier about being well prepared for the difficult times. And I think it's something that most people just kind of go through life, hit kind of a roadblock and they aren't prepared for it. So then there's no way to kind of maneuver around it. I guess what, what, does that actually like look like and how do people do that in reality? It's such a good question, Jack. And I, I do often think that sometimes

10:34 there can be a certain point in life, you we often refer to the midlife crisis and it can be, you know, those of us who are lucky enough to have sort of had quite good things happen to us out there in the world and just sort of ridden along on that wave of where we seem to have got a good job and we seem to be appreciated and valued or promoted or whatever it might be. And it all seems very nice and what we're doing seems to be working quite well. And then exactly as you said, a roadblock can hit.

11:01 And it very often does for a lot of people at some point in life. And the thing that we find again and again is when we're not really awake to ourselves in the world, we keep doing the same thing again and again. And then we, we become very confused and disappointed that the things are not as good as they were in the past. And we get caught in patterns that sometimes work for us, but then sometimes stop working for us. And

11:30 We are passionate about helping people recognize the helpful patterns, but also recognize the unhelpful patterns that when suddenly the world is not giving you something that you want, how can I be much more at choice and break some of those unhelpful patterns? So that really, really sits at the core of our work. And it's probably why I'm so passionate about this, whether it's personal or professional, most of us hit a roadblock at some point. And actually the time to future-proof and get ready for

12:00 those curve balls is when things are going a bit better. And we say the same in therapy, actually the time to do some of that work, it's hard to do it when you're in the depths of despair, but it's like going to the gym, know, work that muscle. And I can put a really personal story around this, when I lost a former partner a number of years ago, eight years ago now, gosh, time flies for anybody who's lost anybody, they'll understand how time is very strange with grief.

12:30 It was actually Tom and I who set up 4D Human Being. And he was a real game changer for me. He brought in a way of thinking that really helped me wake up with this idea of being much more intentional and recognizing what's happening for you physically, emotionally, and intellectually. So what's happening in your body, your feelings, and your thoughts. And can you start to take some control over that or recognize it and have a different relationship with that? And of course, with the world and other people.

12:59 When he very suddenly died, I remember such a distinctive thought in the, just in the next few days afterwards. And I think I even said to a very close friend, or maybe even I said it to you, Pernadine, I can't remember. I said, all of the work that Tom and I created is now exactly what I need to put into practice to get through this most difficult time in my life. And it was that. And I, in a way,

13:27 I had a little bit under my belt because I had something to hold onto. I had some intention. I knew something absolutely massive had happened to me. But I also knew when one or two people said to me, oh, this is the worst thing. You'll get over a loss like this. It will completely change your life. And, you know, it's really, really hard being alone and it's just miserable and sad. And now some of what that person said to me was true.

13:53 You know, you'll never forget this. This is one of the hardest things that would have ever happened to you. But I was aware enough with that intentional dimension dialed up because of the work that we'd created and done, that I knew that I didn't want to let that just be my story, that I wanted to shape my own path through it. And I think that's what's so vital when curveballs hit is that you don't become a victim to a narrative.

14:19 that's been given to you, but you have choice. It's that post-traumatic growth that we have to be very careful that events or other people don't cast us in their drama. And we're a passive actor. used to be an actor. So we use the analogy a lot of performance, that we're not a passive actor that's been cast in someone else's story. You're not even the hero in your own story. And I think that's really, really something to hold onto when difficult things happen. That that's what happens to heroes. Tough things happen to heroes.

14:49 they're at the center of that story. And it's up to them to take those steps and drive through and come out the other side. You know, they're not the waiter in the restaurant, serving the hero, they are the hero, you know. It's it's thank you. Thank you for being so open. I think it's so inspirational. And I think it's the kind of testament to the pair of you prior work as well. And it's those words, I think, definitely gonna stick with me like that's not my story. And I think it's like how you use that.

15:18 I've been really excited of the pair, me and Zach. I'm the drama queen. did a degree in drama. That's probably why I ended up in sales, but I've been so excited for this. I wanted to talk about one of the things that you've said about improvisation isn't just a skill for the stage, but it's actually a life skill. What does that mean?

15:42 Yeah, I have to pick up on the drama queen, please. I'm looking at Zach now and thinking, yeah, is that true, Zach, in terms of your business partnership? It's more, Jack is the showman, I would say. I'll put it like that. I'm more than necessarily, but if you throw him in a room full of a hundred people, he's going to leave with a hundred friends. I might leave with one, because I've stayed in the corner all the time. that's one friend to me. That one friend who I came with is Jack.

16:12 How nice is that narrative? There's a different spin on a narrative straight away, that it? That's beautiful. Yes, well, absolutely. So, Jack, was an actor and that is one of the pillars of 4D. So we very much bring our work from the acting and performance world. And that's about how you step out on a stage, even when you're not feeling great as an actor, you've got to set the intention. You've got to know how to connect and perform.

16:41 and still be believable and authentic. It's not about pretending because people read that. We bring the psychology and the psychotherapy of understanding how people operate. bring storytelling, of course. I was a script writer as well. And we bring our business hats as well. So those are the pieces that really inform our work, which makes it very unique. And improv is such an interesting one because we use it a lot in our work. And so many leaders that have been through programs, some of whom

17:09 just to echo what Zach said about you, who have become very dear friends of mine, have said to me, if you'd told me that that was going to be an improv workshop, I would not have come. But I am so glad I did because it completely changed how I thought about relationship and how I show up and how I'm operating in the world. There is a fear around improv, isn't there? You think you're going to be told to get up and be kind of be funny. Exactly. Someone's going to come in with big clown shoes and make you be an idiot. So we don't use it like that.

17:38 So I was an improviser for a very long time with a company called The Spontaneity Shop. And we went all over the world and we improvised and we became a very cohesive team improvising long and short format shows. Now, of all the things that I've ever learned, it was one of the most incredible tools because what improv teach you, first of all, it's a team sport. It's not like standup comedy where you're scripted.

18:07 You're on your own. And if someone from the audience heckles you, you've got to beat them. You've got to beat them. With improv, you're in a team. You've got no script. And if someone from the audience speaks up, heckles you or shouts something out, you grab it, integrate it and make it into gold. It's such a different relationship with yourself, with your team members and with other people. And it is the most perfect analogy for leadership and teams. And life. And life.

18:37 Because if you can have the toolkit, because there are tools, people think the improvisers just stand up on stage and make stuff up, but there are rules underneath it, you'll know this, Jack. There are really clear foundational rules that give you so much safety. That means if somebody says something or disagrees with you or criticises you or gives you an idea that you think is rubbish, you know.

19:04 how to absorb that and make it into something that becomes co-creative. And that's what we want to see more and more of in Teams because there's nothing like making it feel, making the other person feel like not just that they're cooperating with you, not just they're collaborating with you, but they have co-created the idea with you. If you're talking about people wanting to go into business, if you want to get your business up and running, if you want to get an idea past somebody, we used, used to script write in...

19:33 London and Hollywood. The way that we got our first script sold to Fox Searchlight was, it was with my improvising partner at the time, was by understanding that with the level of studio execs that we needed to get past, it's no good when they give us notes, us disagreeing and negotiating around what we think is a good note or bad note.

19:55 We needed to be in relationship with them in a way that made them feel like they'd co-created this script. It was as much theirs as it was ours. And they were invested in getting it upstairs. And so we would yes and their ideas. Oh yeah, yeah, and what about this? Rather than, I can see the problem with that. So that kind of cornerstone, mean, it's kind of in a way a cliche now, yes and, but the yes and attitude of I really have heard you.

20:21 I'm really going to take what you've offered me and let's make it into something new. That means that you have a confidence in public. You can be in front of thousands of people. And if the lights go out or if somebody leaves the room, you can make it into something. You can make it work. Well, now we're all in the dark. This is a wonderful opportunity, isn't it? To really understand something about your partner. So ask them a question you wouldn't dare to ask with the lights on. You know, you can play with it.

20:48 The other thing about it that I would add for the listeners, which we through our work all the time is, we don't often or always as human beings think about how the people or person in front of us is feeling. We think about the facts that we've got to deliver or the negotiation that we've got to win or whatever it might be.

21:07 Really, know, the George Clooney charm is all about thinking about how does that person feel in front of me. And in terms of business, I mean, that is absolute gold. And if we realize that and if we focus on that as our intention, it's an absolute game changer. And particularly now, you know, we, I mean, we say it all the time. We've been saying it for years, but now we are right in it. We've known that the pace of change at this level has been coming down the track.

21:32 Like we've been talking about it. love to philosophize about it, but now we're in it and we can see the impact on people and teams and leaders and businesses. And if you are the kind of leader that was like, it's like an actor where you like your script, you don't want that to change, you're going to really struggle. But if you're an improviser where suddenly- Everything is interesting. Yeah. Well, suddenly you've made an offer, but then your team member has just said, oh, I think there's a-

21:59 an alien at the door and you're like, that is not where we were going. But now you've got to work with that. And that muscle is incredible for the context that we're living in at the moment with leaders that can adapt to that pace of change and that unexpected events, you know, heartbeat. And that muscle, that flexibility is really a good map for it. It's what we call systems thinking is being that big picture thinking much more able to adapt quickly. And so for us,

22:29 We can talk about systems thinking and integral theory and we can use all this highfalutin language, but actually what you need is some people to come in and help you really understand what does that actually look like in terms of behaviors? And what it looks like is being a great improviser, interestingly. So it sounds like if someone's listening and they think, actually, that isn't a skill that I've got in my toolbox. It's not that you can't gain it.

22:55 So if they're thinking, well, I'm avoiding that tough conversation because I don't know what's going to come up or actually I don't want to have that business meeting next week because what if they challenge me on this thing and I don't really know what to expect. It feels like from what you're saying, this is actually a skill that you can gain and add to your toolbox. It's power. I'm going to hand to Penn now because I think you know why, because we come from such different backgrounds.

23:20 I'd come through improv, but Penn hadn't. So she didn't really talk to people who feel like that. I came up through finance. I was a chartered accountant back in the day. It seems like a lifetime ago now. So moved through finance, through general business and management, and then into psychology. And so I have a very different background and would probably have identified quite differently back in the day in terms of who I am and what I can and can't do. It's definitely a skill set you can learn. I've learned it. I love it.

23:48 We all have whole brains. We all have whole brain thinking. We tend to have a dominant kind of thinking style depending on partly genetics, but also how we've been brought up and what career we've chosen. But we can work the rest of our brain in terms of that improvisation piece, that more kind of open blue sky thinking piece. So we can definitely, definitely learn it.

24:12 One thing I would say, Zach, about your question is when people do feel fearful about going into conflict, having those difficult conversations, going into challenging meetings, a lot of us feel like that. It's very normal and there's a very good reason for it. Very often people will think or they'll say, I'm worried about what that person's going to say, or I'm worried that they're not going to like my idea, or whatever it might be. And whilst there is a truth to that, we would offer that really what they're nervous about, really what they're frightened about,

24:41 is that they won't know how to respond. It's less about how somebody else will react. It's more about, I won't know what I will do. So it's that self trust piece and you can learn that. We have tools that can really help you build those muscles in terms of your response patterns. So in short, yes, you can learn it. Yes, you can. We're not fixed entities as human beings. We like to think we have a fixed identity, but we really don't. We are creating ourselves every day. I mean, a really simple.

25:10 for anybody thinking about this, like they're going in for a pitch on a business or they're having a conversation with a potential investor or even just talking to somebody about their idea and wanting to get feedback, but worried about what will come back at them or that they'll be sort of criticized or it'll be taken apart, is that whatever comes at you, if you can step in with curiosity, genuine curiosity, it's a complete game changer. If someone says, oh my goodness, that is the worst, that is literally the worst idea I've ever heard.

25:40 Wow, I have never had such direct feedback. I would love to dive into that and really understand what makes you say that. You're going to learn something. Now, it's only an opinion. You can choose what you take in. But you're going to learn something about that. And that's interesting. The piece after that is whether or not you value that person's opinion enough to take it in. And hopefully, you'll get other opinions. But you don't want to just leave with a sort of

26:07 anger or defence, you want to find out why someone feels that strongly? Crikey! Find out why! Fascinating!

26:16 I love that. I love the idea of cultivating curiosity as a habit. So every time something comes up as a curve ball, what my default setting being, that's interesting. No one says that to me. I've not heard that before because then you're to have much more interest in engaged, less defensive style of conversation. So I love that. One thing that came up then that I'm really interested in, as you can imagine, we don't get many identical twins that run businesses together on the podcast.

26:45 And you both had very diverse backgrounds in terms of you did completely different things and then came back together. So I wondered if you could speak to early childhood and maybe some of those initial stories that you'd picked up that maybe meant Philippa ended up on the stage and Penelope ended up in business. What were those things that you picked up that meant you didn't start off down the same path?

27:09 I think it's interesting because I think part of it is about differentiating the cells because if we were both in a school band, we both used to do plays at school, we were both good at maths, you know, there were so many similarities. So I think it probably gets to a point where, I mean, there's something called family, you can do family systems work in therapy. And what's interesting about family systems work is that, and this is of course the same in teams.

27:37 that if there's already a role taken, then there's no space for you to take that role. So if you think about this, for anybody who's, again, the people listening who you've spoken to around wanting the courage to sort of step forward and make their mark or have their adventure, if they've got a sibling, just for example, who's off abseiling in Australia or whitewater rafting in South America, they've got the adventurous.

28:05 sibling and they've been identified as, you know, well, know, save Stephen, then there's something about breaking free of that system because you're given those roles within systems. And I think that's partly what happens and we all do it, is that we have to, we sort of find our way to get attention, to be seen and to be validated. You know, we all get, call them strokes in transactional analysis where you learn that if you're funny,

28:34 your dad really likes it. So he keeps praising you for that. We're going to keep being funny, aren't you? Or if you're really good or if you're really smart. So I think that's part of what goes on is you find your niche that gets you rewarded. And really what we want is connection and love, of course. So think that that's partly what goes on. And I think that's also really we can speak to in our model that what Penelope said earlier, some of that's really useful and can send you down the most amazing path.

29:01 but sometimes you can end up in a career or choices that aren't really where you want to be or who you really are. It's sort of more about how you've adapted to your system. And I think the same thing can happen in teams. So that is the opportunity to break out and say, actually, no, I want to do this. And I think you and I have both reached a place in our lives through very different routes where we've gone, this really speaks to what we love and what we care about. Sort of regardless of our

29:30 typology, if you like, or how we were put into boxes. And actually, you can kind of disprove it because you probably spend more time in front of crowds now. definitely do. Can I do? I definitely do. So, you know, I just think it's, yes, we're shaped. And that's probably partly why we took our paths. But for us, the most exciting thing is looking at that and going, is that what I want? Is that who I am? Or actually, are there other aspects of myself that I want to dial up? you know, sometimes I'll...

29:56 as as I don't want to be in front we are constantly fascinated by the nature-nurture debate. Obviously, being identical twins, I find it absolutely fascinating. The jury's still out, as far as we're concerned, but it is why we love this work so much, because being genetically identical, we are so curious about who you become in the world and what you end up doing and how you relate to other people and the choices that you make. It's absolutely fascinating to us.

30:24 And I think a really good touchstone for this, for anybody listening is when you go back to your family of origin, be that your parents, caregivers, siblings at Christmas or some festival or holiday, just notice how you behave when you're back in that system, because it's a really good indicator of the parts of you that probably got identified much younger and they're quite difficult to break out of, as Philippa said, when you're back in that family system.

30:53 But likely if you've moved away and you have a career, you would have developed different parts of yourself. And this really speaks to the fact that we are continually creating who we are, continually creating our identity. It's not fixed. But when you go back to your family of origin, I'm the quiet one in the family. There's four girls, we're four sisters. I'm the youngest one. I am the quiet one. And I can tell you, in the work I do, I am not.

31:19 quiet. And my kids would never say I was quiet. When I go back to the family at Christmas, I'm the quietest one. always make you think of Ram Dass, was a spiritual speaker who passed away not that long ago. He always said, if you think you're enlightened, go and spend a week with your family. And I just love it. Because because also what it what it really speaks to is, you know, we love this work, we're passionate about it. And we're always driving towards, you know, really being far more conscious about

31:49 at the choices that we make, the impact that we make when we get triggered emotionally. Just this morning, I just took a moment. I didn't send the email. We're trying to do that work all the time. I was really pleased that I didn't. But it's also acknowledging that we're also all human. When we, our business name is 4D human being, and that both speaks to becoming a 4D human being, so far more intentional, and also we're human beings. We're all.

32:17 we'll all trip up and stumble. And really the marker of the work is how quickly we can get back to centre and not get sucked down the vortex for days and weeks and months. But we're all human, aren't we? Yeah, those patterns are in there. Well, I'm curious thinking about sort of families of origin, if either of you, and Jack, have sort of recognised that thing about going back to the family and who your family expect you to be. Yeah. Do you know, and Jack talk about this a lot. We've started this business together.

32:48 And starting a business brings out funny things in people's families, especially that we're from Blackpool's a very working class town. And initially there was this weird, my wife actually spotted it first where I'd be around certain family members. It almost be like I was telling them a bit too much. Like I was looking for someone to go, Oh, well done mate. Like I was a little boy again, like, well done. That's so good. But actually that wasn't the response I was getting. So I'd start reaching more and telling them more.

33:17 And I believe afterwards, I think, don't know what it is. feel a bit disappointed. I don't know what it is. Then my wife actually spotted it first. Um, but since I've just changed that habit, I just actually don't tell them that much. And I don't get that same disappointment. Um, but we talk about all the time, Jack, don't we? don't know if you have anything that's similar.

33:37 I think it's so fascinating. I'm an only child. like when I go back to like my mother or my father, there's different relationships there, but I definitely sense that like, I think in our friendship group, I'm probably like Zach, me and Zach are probably two of the loudest. And I think when I go back to like my large family group of like aunties, cousins, et cetera, probably not the biggest in the room because I'm the youngest. So I really, really related with that.

34:05 My curiosities was really, I found all of that so interesting. And this is like really stuff that me and Zach geek out on. So the fact that we get to just sit here and ask the questions that we're thinking, we're very, very lucky to thank you. Zach's got four children of various different ages. I've got a six month old son, so I'm new to the parenting game. And part of me is when you're saying about like taking that role.

34:32 there's probably like twofold you could take it as well from like a leadership standpoint. I think one of the things we think about is like, how do we, how do we parent in the best way possible and lead in the best way possible so that is it the right thing to just kind of if our children are funny, do we lean into that or do we like praise them for that or how do we let them get to a point where they make the right decisions for them rather than they're leaning in.

35:01 to the validation of us as parents? What a good question. And you're right. What a great analogy for leadership. The difference between facilitating a team to become everything it can be rather than molding a team into what you want it to be. Yeah. And allowing people not to have kind of self-limiting beliefs about what their role is and what it can't be.

35:27 I wish I had the perfect answer to the parenting question, Jack. I have three teenage daughters. Trust me, I wish I had all the answers. I guess what I can say is that this work definitely, definitely helps. being aware of those patterns that we are creating in other people as human beings is really, really useful. Not to say that we are not then replicating those patterns as parents, you know.

35:57 We've inherited lots of things from our own parents and we are passing things on to our kids. I think being aware of how we speak to them for me in a couple of areas is really important. So one is in terms of the internal narrative that they hold about themselves. So if you think about who you are in the world, your behaviors or choices, what people see, of course, that's the piece of the iceberg above the surface of the water. But below that,

36:23 We've all got our own beliefs about ourselves and our internal narrative. And for me, doing anything I can to support that internal narrative, being as positive as possible is hugely important. So that's one thing that I try to keep in mind when certain conversations come up. And the other piece that I try to do, it's not easy as a parent.

36:46 But we have our own patterns as human beings that we have learned and inherited from our parents and caregivers. So for example, we might have got praise as a child for being good at playing the piano or being good at football or maths or whatever it might be, being, as Philip said, as being funny. We'll tend to repeat patterns. So when kids come home from school, we'll say things like, you've got an A star. I'm so proud of you. I love you. And they will then connect.

37:15 being the best, good grade with love, care, connection, and safety. And again, that's the second piece. I try, I try, I'm not always successful, but I try to make sure that the strokes, the care, the love, the security that I give, as much as possible, is linked to them simply being who they are and enjoying the process of what they do rather than the end result of what they do. I don't always achieve it, but being aware of that is super useful, I think.

37:44 You know, somebody told me a story yesterday, a friend of mine called Jay, so shout out to him, who thinks a lot about this kind of stuff. And he was telling me about going for a walk with his two, they're quite small girls in a cornfield. And he said, what he realized on that walk was the difference between as a parent, and this is a really good analogy for a leader. If you're walking in front of your children, you're deciding where you go. You're really deciding the path.

38:14 what they'll see, what they'll look at, sort of what they'll engage with. Not only that, but you're looking behind you all the time. Sort of, they here, are they here? A little bit stressed and a little bit annoyed if they're lagging behind too much and the gap can open up. If you walk behind your kids on a walk, they're looking out the front, they're deciding what to engage with, they're seeing a path that they wanna go down. You can see exactly where they are so that you know that they're safe.

38:43 and you can just follow them at their pace. he was talking about the difference in the experience was so huge. And the choices that they make. And the choices that they make. And so that, something about the, you you can call it the invisible leader or the supportive leader, but actually, you know, recognizing your patterns, I know how front foot I can be, I have to work very hard at.

39:06 allowing and letting people just get on with it. it's hard. map reader though, Phil. Great navigation. Quite useful. But exactly as Penn said, when you can recognize those patterns, and even if occasionally you can just change them, and it'll be hard. You we talk a lot about this, that those- Look, I want my kids to get an A star. Exactly. We've only got an hour. I want to go this way. And, know, but just to recognize those patterns and to make-

39:31 to know that you always have choice. You always, always have choice. And I think we can forget that sometimes. We talk to people in the business world a lot who feel that they don't have a lot of choice because we get narrowed into our way of being and we have to do it like this. But of course we don't. It's just that it's uncomfortable to stretch out of our comfort zone and do something slightly differently, which again, speaks to people who are listening who want to do something new. We know this, it won't feel comfortable.

39:59 That's the game, that's the choice. That's where the growth is. It's the Maslow's quote, we constantly have a choice to step back into safety or forward into growth. And it's not always comfortable, but that is going to be living your best life arguably. And that's choice. you've got a bit of time, Jack, six months, you've got a bit of time. I'm guessing that you've got a variety of ages. I feel like I haven't screwed it up so far.

40:28 You're doing well for six months. Yeah, I've got a variety of... I'm just about to enter teenage with one. My oldest is 11, starting high school in September, but my youngest is two. So there's still quite a nice variety. But I was actually thinking that when we were talking, I asked my two year old this morning when I got him out of his car, how he feels. And the first thing he said was gorgeous. And I thought how...

40:57 you come into the world and he had a big curly hair this morning and stuff and he said, I feel gorgeous. And I thought, wow, if only everyone woke up and you lose that, don't you, as you get older, sadly, you don't wake up feeling that way. Well, that's a really good example, actually, Zach, because again, depending on your upbringing, there's definitely part of our upbringing. had quite a...

41:20 you know, think probably lots of English families relate to this sort of maybe a slightly sarcastic humor in the house, where if somebody said that, you might say something like, oh, get, get you, you know, and that's the kind of response that then starts building the neural pathways in the brain. Oh, I mustn't think of myself like that. So is that because you did celebrate like, yeah, we're all about celebrating. Penelope was going through some of our new video content that soon we have a digital platform.

41:48 called Forge On Demand, which means everybody can access the training at any level. And we've got another series going on around personal branding and profile. And Penelope was going through some of the content and she said, I know what's going to happen. I'm going to find all this amazing content that you've created and all these worksheets that I haven't seen before and they're just going to be amazing. And I said, well, as you go through it, if you do want to drop me a line and let me know if anything's amazing, please do. And we were sort of, you know, it's a sort of joke, but actually.

42:15 We are huge, huge advocates for celebration. We have enough problems to solve or worries to ruminate on. Make some space for either allowing other people to appreciate you or appreciating yourself. It does amazing things. How do you feel? Feel gorgeous. It does wonderful things for the brain and the body. It's fabulous.

42:41 I'm loving where this conversation's going. And I think we said at the beginning, like it could go anywhere. I don't think we expected to get deep into kind of child and therapy and kind of how we parent. And what I really want to kind of make sure that we cover before we leave this 4D human being, give me everything. give me the look. So, so 4D human being.

43:09 is, but it stands for four dimensions, dimensions. And the model that we use is the 4D2C model, four dimensions, two contexts. And what we love about it is it's a fully kind of integral map, we would call it. So it's a really kind of, it's a real catch-all model. So you can apply it to how you communicate, you can apply it to a meeting, a pitch, you can apply it to your wellbeing, you can apply it to your family relations. And most of us think of ourselves in three dimensions. So physical,

43:39 emotional and intellectual. So our bodies and how we act and behave and our facial expressions, our emotions, how we feel and our thoughts and how we think. And a lot of the time that is running on autopilot. So we've often inherited our physical dimension. Our emotional dimension has often been conditioned by our upbringing. So you can think about that really basically in terms of

44:07 Do I tend to feel good and safe in the world or actually do I feel unsafe and sort of hypervigilant? And that will be about how safe it was in my upbringing or, you know, do I tend to feel happier more of the time or worried more of the time? So we're conditioned a lot emotionally and then intellectually at school, early career, we learn what to think, what to believe and how to think. So a lot of that is given to us, if you like, comes in and we live in a context. We don't live in a vacuum.

44:35 We live in the context of our environment, which is one of the contexts. So where you live, the weather, the technology you use, the transport you use, everything around you is impacting you. We love it in this country. The weather is the constant conversation and constantly impacting moods. If your train's late, that's going to impact your mood. Traffic, now the big one. All of the environment is pushing and squeezing in on you all the time. And the other thing that's doing that, of course, are

45:03 people, your relationships. So these are the two contexts we live in, who you're surrounded by and the environment you live in. Now, if you think about your three dimensions, physical, emotional, intellectual, there you are, off to work, you're in your car, physically calm, emotionally happy, intellectually nice and clear, thinking about your next meeting. Suddenly you're in a traffic jam, the environment suddenly changed and the person behind you is screaming at you. So suddenly you've got these two contexts squeezing in, now what's happened? Physically you're tense, emotionally you're angry,

45:33 and intellectually you're coming up with all sorts of sentences and phrases you're going to shout back at that person, or you're thinking I'm going to be late for my meeting. And that's what's happened to you. Automatically. Automatically. Because of your conditioning, those patterns that want to, know, Daniel Kahneman talks about system one and system two brain. System one is automatic thinking. And your system wants to use that as often as possible because it's much, much quicker. It's much quicker to...

45:59 do the things that you know how to do in the way you know how to do them rather than learn a new thing. Otherwise we'd all be multilingual and be Simone Biles, wouldn't we? Basically, That's Philippa's Olympic dream. That's my Olympic dream. But at the center of the model is your fourth dimension. And this is the game changer for relationships, for choices, for starting a new business, for operating in the current business you're in, is your intentional dimension. If you think about it like a doughnut that's just been squeezed

46:29 That center's just got really tight. Your intentional self has switched off and the automatic stuff is just going on. And firing up the intentional dimension, and that's, we've got all kinds of tools that might be around shifting your body position. If you do something really simple, like relax and open your palms, relax your shoulders, sit back in your chair, you're gonna change your physical dimension, get your breathing regulated. Energetically, emotionally, if you start changing your energy level up or down.

46:58 if you start thinking something slightly differently or decide to say a different phrase to the person behind you. Setting a different intention is going to push that doughnut, if you like, back out. And you're now in control and the arrows are now going out into the world rather than the world squeezing in on you. And that is all about intention. And it starts from the moment you wake up in the morning, your automatic thoughts are going to come piling in. Check your phone. What's my diary? Oh, I've got to do that. Oh, am I going to have time?

47:27 All of those thoughts are just going to come piling in and that's setting your day. But you're not your thoughts. Your thoughts are just going to come in. It's like opening your front door and allowing crazy people to come into your house in the morning and just start shouting at you rather than saying, hold on a minute. I'm going to pop you back out the front door for a moment and I'm going to choose how this day is going to start. And that is the intentional dimension. And in a way, it sounds obvious, but most of us don't do it.

47:53 Most of us just let the crazy people into our house and we run the same day that we ran yesterday. So that's the 4D2C model. And we use it in application across a number of training programs, coaching, we do keynotes, conferences, big group offsite. So we'll run programs such as impact, presentation skills, storytelling. So real core comms, we'll do leadership programs, leadership development. We'll also do team development and team dynamics over longer term pieces.

48:21 we can apply this model to anything. And really what we're all about is the interface of human beings with other human beings and the choices that we are making. Because ultimately we are creating the experience of our lives and whether that's about our personal lives, our leadership, our team dynamics, how we present an impact. We have choice over that all of the time. And that model sits at the core of everything that we do. And what I absolutely love about it, we talk about this a lot, Fernandes and I, that, you know,

48:50 If we look at a building, often think it's made of bricks. But we forget that the cement is a really big part of that building. And I think we can do this with our lives, that we think, wow, I showed up brilliantly in that presentation. I stood there and I told the organization how people-focused I am and how it's all about you guys. And we're all together motivated to our vision, our line of sight, and our strategy. You come off the stage.

49:18 and your assistant hasn't got the right cup of coffee for you and you bull them out. Now, you know, and we forget that that's you as well. You know, that's you. And the culture is created in every single moment. When you're walking down the corridor, rushing past somebody with your body completely turned away from them saying, oh, it's so nice to see you. Your body's already gone. And it's these micro moments that are also creating culture. So it's intention, not just in the big events, not just in your company pitches.

49:46 You know, you think about going and pitching for a new business, it's how you've walked into that waiting room. It's whether you've, you might have bumped into somebody on the train without knowing, without being in that pitch. It's who you are in every moment. how you leave the room. It's how you offer someone else a coffee and not expect the assistant to get up. You know, it's in every moment. Are you awake to the impact that you're making? Because your life is not going to depend just on that big pitch. People will want to work with you because of who you are.

50:15 after the big pitch in every single moment. It's relationship. I, you know, I was, my car broke down once on Waterloo Bridge. I mean, not a good place to break down. And a woman was so furious with me. literally as my car was being craned onto a truck, there was nothing I could do about it. She was so cross. And I thought, you know, I wonder if you're off, you know, you might be driving to some charity event where you're going to sort of, you know, walk in and...

50:43 donate a thousand pounds and be the goodly person. But you're also the person who's shouting at a woman on Waterloo Bridge Road, who can do nothing about the fact that her car's blocking the road. You we're not just the big moments. We are who we are in the traffic jam as well. So it really is about that, about waking up. Wow. I love that. We are who we are in the traffic jam is another, I feel like this is the quotable episode we've maybe ever, ever had.

51:13 Yeah, I love that. love that. Me and Jackson, we used talk about the idea of you've got this invisible PR agent that walks around with you. So all the stuff you just said around who you are some of the time is who you are all the time. So I really love that. So let's unfortunately, we're to have to round this off, but let's say, I've listened to this episode and I feel like I want my intentional self to be driving the bus and I want to start talking to Philippa and Penelope.

51:41 What's the best way for someone to start that process? How do you like people to reach out and start engaging with you? Well, if you go to our website, it's probably the easiest place to find, first of all, our contact details, but also some, we love sharing the work that we do. So there's loads of stuff on our website that's absolutely free for people. our email address is info at 4dhumanbeing.com. And that's the number four info at 4dhumanbeing.com.

52:10 You'll find more details on the website. You can also sign up to our newsletter. You can sign up to our Essentials platform where you start getting subscription information. It's completely free. There is a pay section, you can sign up to the first level. free. So you can start engaging with us for absolutely nothing. Podcasts. Podcasts. We absolutely love this work and we want as many people as possible to know about it. If you're...

52:37 in a small business or in a large business, we work with many multinational, huge corporations around the world. We would be delighted to have a conversation with you about helping your leadership and your executives and your teams. So there's plenty of ways to interface with us, connect with us. We also love people picking up the phone as well. And it's so interesting that, again, because of these patterns that we have, when we speak to people, say, know, give me a ring, let's have a chat for half an hour and...

53:04 people often don't do it. know, there's often blockers to us actually connecting and stepping into these kinds of opportunities. And for us, it's all about relationship. The more people that you can connect with, get curious about the rich in your life is going to be. Absolutely. So I don't have anything to add to that. I wonder if we can just touch on one more thing around the fact that we, you, and some of your listeners setting up their own business around the intentional dimension. Cause I think you'll relate to this.

53:33 It's sort of been sitting in my head and I thought I must mention that, that we call this phenomena running ahead. Because at the same time as sort of being awake to who you are, a lot of people are also trying to get somewhere. And if you're setting up a new business or wanting to become, you know, change career or whatever it might be, you have to at some level do what we call running ahead, which is behaving physically, emotionally, intellectually.

54:01 turning up, showing up, about yourself in the way that you're going to be in six months time or a year's time. And that can feel really difficult for people, but I think for me, it's one of the biggest things around setting up a business. When I first walked into one of those big marble foyers in the city and for my first coaching client meeting with a general counsel on the board of an insurance company, and I had my little first printed 4D human being card,

54:30 course I didn't feel like I had this whole company behind me. It was new. But you have to run ahead, say, you know, hand your card into the reception, say, Philip Awola, 40 human being. It was one of the first times I'd said it. But you have to run ahead and act as if that is a thing and it's a solid thing and it's an entity and, you've got to kind of fill it, if you like, with your energy and run ahead and be that already.

54:58 And in six months time, a year's time, will feel like that. But of course it doesn't feel like that initially. So I imagine you had similar things. Anybody who set up a business has to at some point say their name and their business name before it quite feels like a thing. So run ahead. Yeah. We still have that now. It doesn't go away. yeah, I love that.

55:22 Thank you both so much. I've really, it hasn't disappointed. I've been telling Jack, obviously me and Philippa met before the episode. I've been telling Jack, this is one to look out for. We're both going to enjoy it so much. I think it's been one of my favorite episodes. So thank you both so much for giving us your time and your wisdom and hopefully we can do it again. What a pleasure. Thank you so much. a pleasure. We wish you both really well. Take care.