00:00 literally knock on the front door say hello you know my name is Robin Drake I work here at local office on the FBI I work in the world of counterintelligence I went into the FBI 1997 and inside the FBI I did nothing but counterintelligence my job inside there was recruiting Russian intelligence officers and all sorts of spooky spooky spy stuff as I say we are genetically and biologically coded to overcome obstacles we suck in abundance

00:25 It's the bedrock of relationships. It's the bedrock of everything. And as you said, we're all in the sales business and the only thing you're really ever selling is you. And what you're selling is can this individual trust me to solve the problem, challenge prior to pain point in their life with my resources? Think about, and for everyone listening, just think about this for one second. Think about during the course of your day, week or month, who do you absolutely love and can't wait to see walk around that corner? Or the door opens up and here they come.

00:53 persuade someone, can convince someone, you can manipulate someone. Absolutely. And those are words I hate. As we discuss, it's going to play forward incongruently with what you're trying to achieve and do. You hired me as your executive assistant, I'm just telling you what the cause and effect is. If you want me not to say these things, pick a different path.

01:14 Last year, was lucky enough to be joined on the podcast by behavior expert and master spy recruiter, Robin Drake. It was one of my favorite conversations. So when I heard he was releasing a new book, I couldn't not get him back on. But before we dive into it today, Robin, I guess for those people that are new to the podcast, I'm going to hit you with a big open question. Who are you and what problem do you solve? I'm going to keep it really simple and really funny on that one. Who am I?

01:44 I go by the most important title in the world. I'm a father and I help solve my kids' problems. Now all I did in my professional life gave me the skill set to do that. And so that professional life was I'm a United States Naval Academy graduate. From there I went to the Marine Corps. I was a Marine Corps officer for a number years. I went into the FBI in 1997 and inside the FBI I did nothing but counterintelligence. My job inside there was recruiting Russian intelligence officers and all.

02:13 sorts of hooky spooky spy stuff. I say, I was on our behavioral team for a number of years. I took over our behavioral team as a chief of the behavioral analysis program. I taught at Quantico advanced courses in counterintelligence. And then I retired in 2018. I've written three books and yet, and you kindly mentioned I have my fourth one coming out later this year. And out of all those things, um, it really comes down to how do you treat people really, really, really well? You make it about them. You'd be present for them.

02:43 Again, all those skill sets I learned because I had to provide for my family are the skill sets that I strategize with both my amazing children every day of their lives so that they have a successful, prosperous life where they feel fulfilled and complete. There you go. There's the monster. Robin, one of the things... There's this quote about like, people won't remember what you do, but they'll remember how you made them feel. And I remember after our conversation last time, like obviously you speak about it and you know the theory.

03:13 I actually remember like walking away from that conversation. like, I feel I like that guy. I feel good. I don't know what you did, but you worked your magic and obviously like, but I felt it. like, that's why I was like, we've had loads of people on the podcast, some that I'd never invite back. But I was like, I've got to get this guy back on because you were amazing. So I guess let's, let's get into it. So, um, unbreakable alliances, what, what problem does that solve? So who do I need to be? What kind of problems do I need to be facing in life to, to

03:42 have that book and what can it solve for me? So in Breakable Alliances, the whole premise of this, and I'm gonna do my best to make you feel like a million bucks again, and it's a really simple thing, and Zach, I'm gonna do it to you since you're sitting there beautifully quiet, taking it all in, but the problem it solves is a problem we all have. Everything. Everything in life comes down to relationships.

04:06 And a great quote from a book I recently read is that all problems are interpersonal problems. really, think about it, everything you face in life, every challenge, every obstacle, every friction point daily that we have in life can be overcome, can be moved through with a relationship.

04:28 Even Arnold Schwarzenegger's recent book that he came out with you know, he used to you know People always say oh you're such a self-made man because you come from Austria your weightlifter and you got into acting and all that and Even he would with this overpowering ego that he most likely has looks like he has Doesn't matter, you know if we believe it or not believe it. He even says I am NOT a self-made man I am made by the people that inspired me. I'm made by the people that

04:55 were allied with me that were my team members. am made by the people that set the example of what not to be in life and who not to be. know, even if we have trauma in our childhood of growing up from our parents lack of great examples, as many of us do, I mean, I come from a fantastically dysfunctional family. Good. They gave me great examples to be the amazing father that I strive to be every single day of my life. Those were amazing, amazing people in my life.

05:23 Because here's another truth, not only are all problems interpersonal problems, but we don't remember average days. And if you want to come to the end of our lives, when I call it when a sad day is coming, because a sad day is coming for us all, the one thing that we all have in common on this beautiful planet is one we're exceptionally lucky and lucky in the fact that out of all the.

05:46 Billions of particles in this entire universe that they all coalesce together to give us as an individual life no matter how Trying or tribulating we think that life is is an incredible stroke of luck and chance that you're alive and When a sad day comes, you know, you just ask yourself What do I remember from that life and you don't remember the average days you remember days that were really fantastically really awesome

06:12 Remember them when they're really a challenge in a struggle. We are genetically and biologically coded to overcome obstacles We suck in abundance, you know, there's another great book called a comfort crisis. Yes We do not thrive in abundance because of hundreds of thousands years of evolution. We are meant to carry a load We're meant to be in deprivation. We're meant to struggle and the way that we have been bred through

06:39 decades and hundreds of thousands of years of evolution to overcome everything is relationships. It's the collective. It's those good healthy people in our lives that we can ally with and then we can be there for them because the greatest thing we also do for ourselves and those around us is service. It gives us the greatest reward in life is when we serve others. Anyway, as I always give these long narrative answers.

07:05 That was beautiful. Beautiful. Lovely to meet you, Robin. I didn't get to have the pleasure last time. So Zach, I'm going to do it to you right now because I am infinitely curious. What was a spark and inspiration that brought you and Jack together and brought us here together today? So me and Jack have been friends since we were 15. We run a business together. Oh, my gosh. You're already whammy. 15? What business were you doing together at 15?

07:33 Well, no, we were, we were actually made friends because of music and we pursued a music career that failed. We learned a lot and had a lot of good experiences. And then we started a business in the last three years in B2B sales. So not as exciting, but as a result, we're always interested in speaking to people who are experts in communication, psychology. We thought about two years ago, why don't we get a podcast going and speak to people like yourself? And here we are. Who would have thought?

08:03 And I'll only ask one more, promise. And then I'll let you all run it. What kept you together for so long? As friends. Yeah. I think humor is probably the thing that's brought us that we've got a strange, surreal sense of humor. got, always trying to make each other laugh, even in very tense environments where there's a lot on the line, mission critical deal to get over the line. We're still.

08:33 cracking jokes to keep it lighthearted. So if there was one thing, it's probably that, amongst others. What a great example of unbreakable alliances and how they solve every single problem. See how we did that? It's just everywhere we look. When you look and you give some meaning to what is actually around you, the fog clears. It's always been there. And that's what I love about what we're doing here today and what we all do each every day.

09:01 The solutions are always around us. We just have to let go of our insecurities, vanity and egos to say, hey, today's the day I need help. Today's the day I need an ally because tomorrow the person next to me might need it and it's okay to give it. know, so it's, these great healthy relationships like you two have maintained since 15 years old that kept you together that said, Hey, we can do more and we can overcome anything and have it. And most importantly, have a great time doing it.

09:30 And even, you your music careers, what a great life rep that was because look, you remembered it. It wasn't an average experience and you remembered it. And so you're able to bring that forward. Good job. Yeah, exactly. We can definitely handle rejection after that. So what are life's most profound skill sets as being able to handle the off days? Exactly. If it taught us anything, it's that.

09:59 So what are the things that I'm interested in is your FBI experience in terms of the kind of relationship backdrop. I imagine you learn a lot about how to handle relationships in high pressure environments, perhaps where you have to second guess your emotions and your own biases getting in the way of handling those relationships. So what have you learned about handling those kinds of high pressure relationships and how does that experience link into the book?

10:29 Such a broad question that I have so many tendrils that could go down. And you heard me take that deep breath as I'm reminiscing over all these things, because every step along the way, you're going down a new rabbit hole of things. you said something that was really, really important, profound there, overcoming our confirmation biases. That is the most challenging aspect.

10:57 I faced in the things that I learned along the way. it wasn't, it's the easy confirmation biases that we all have to face and deal with are things like gender, ethnicity, orientation, all those things that are in our face in the media and that we face every day. Those are, believe it not, more apparent and I think less challenging to overcome than the confirmation biases as we have of our own likes, dislikes, and our own personal morals and ethics. Because those are harder to detect in others and harder to see and

11:27 we most likely stumble over ourselves. And what I mean by that, it's my prelude to, I think the greatest challenge I learned in communication and dealing with people, believe it or not, was not the spy recruitment side. That's a skill set which is pretty in your face. Here you have this, for my case, most of the time is a Russian intelligence officer who is an operative at the United Nations or another diplomatic establishment.

11:56 diplomatic cover, you're looking for access points through people and relationships to provide a resource for them in their lives that can solve a problem, challenge or pain point that they have and that they're willing to take a risk of their lives, their family's lives and potentially even the legacy of their family name and brand to solve that problem with you. So that's kind of a straightforward way in which you do the most challenging thing is

12:24 How do you inspire your management above you to allow you to do that? That became also a major stumbling block that my own personal confirmation bias, is mission, mission, mission, mission, mission. I'm a former Marine. Marines are about mission first, people always. That's kind of a saying that we have. in the structure and organization I was dealing with from time to time, ebbs and flows was there was people that sometimes

12:53 Were their dichotomy was out of balance and everything in life's a dichotomy. Another great book I love is Jocko with Lincoln, Leif Babin's the dichotomy of leadership, which really highlights that everything in life we deal with is a dichotomy. Dichotomies of power and leadership and power is about self leaderships, about others dichotomies of, of self versus others where we don't want to be too much about ourselves. Cause then we get egocentric and it gets out of like this, or we're too much about others and we're carpets to be walked on. So everything's a dichotomy.

13:21 dichotomy that I was unaware of at the time was a dichotomy between mission and career. I, my dichotomy was out of balance. I was all about mission, mission, mission, mission. And I had the confirmation bias and I wasn't assessing well, some of my bosses, some of my bosses, what I was going for. Yes, we have this great potential, this great operation. Their career, the things I was, I was suggesting to do

13:49 And I'm going to own my behavior here. I didn't do a good job allowing them to feel safe with allowing me to proceed because their career meant something to them. They're more focused on getting promoted than the mission. Again, that's a guess, but that's OK because whatever it was, I own that behavior. I wasn't providing information, methodologies, tools and techniques to allow them to feel safe, to allow me to move forward. So those were the stressful situations, probably more so.

14:19 And frustration is more so than actually trying to recruit the intelligence officer because I had that plan strategy all packaged really, really nicely. And it's not that we're, you you're guaranteed a yes. Hell, most of the time I'm guaranteed a no. Um, but at least I had a plan and operation. I call it buying the lotto ticket. had a plan and operation to buy that potential for success. And all I needed was permission to go buy that ticket and I couldn't get the permission sometimes. And I, that would be the rig big frustration. So.

14:47 took me most of my career learning how to balance that dichotomy, assess and be empathetic with the people that I'm seeking permission from to understand when I wasn't getting permission to move forward on really, really important operations, understanding I wasn't doing something to allow them to feel safe with. Yes, I didn't have enough context. didn't have enough empathy. I didn't have enough understanding of what their why is and how I was not serving it by what I was proposing. So

15:17 It's it's I know I give long drawn out questions. I deeply think about all these things obviously, but that's part of this whole dynamics like how can you Put your entire all your allies around you to feel safe with moving forward together And so in those moments when it doesn't happen, that's where we have to own the behaviors like we're not doing something We're not communicating in a way that's effective for them to feel comfortable safe in moving forward because as human beings We're all exceptionally predictable

15:45 and I would fail to predict this and here's a predictability. We're all going to act in our own best interest in terms of safety, security and prosperity and our well-being for ourselves and those we care about in our lives. If someone isn't feeling safe enough to move forward with you, you're not doing something to allow them to feel safe with you. Anyway, there's my answer. beautiful, beautiful answer. we could go again, I could go in many different tentacles there from what you said.

16:14 One of the things that I heard recently that I thought was interesting, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is one of the biases in the way that we see the world is this idea of like a tribal bias. So you think you're seeing the world as right and wrong, but what you're really seeing the world as is us versus them. So my tribe versus your tribe. And there was some sort of experiment on it where there was only two answers.

16:40 If you thought it was one answer, you thought the person on other side was a complete idiot for thinking it was the other answer. So I suppose how in your career did you make sure when you're making these critical decisions that you weren't thinking only of the perspective of your tribe and including the opinion of the other side to come to kind of that common ground? These are beautiful, great questions. It took a lot of reps to be able to do that. And these...

17:08 beautiful reps happen because when you fail at communicating effectively, if you're at least self-aware enough to say, what did I do wrong? I did something off in that communication. You own your behavior and you try to analyze what you did. when it went off is because I did just what you said. I was imposing my tribal bias on someone in the context in which I was communicating and language you have their method. was literally just talking. Um,

17:36 We were talking beforehand with Neil Strauss, you who I'm friend with you and we're talking about the situation with someone he's interviewing and he asked me Do you think she's lying and I go that's actually a label. I don't use Because to me People really It's this is gonna really get people really pissed off probably I don't see people as lying or being deceptive I see people acting in the own best interest of them in their tribe

18:06 And if they feel unsafe, they're going to avoid completely factual things. They're going to use word bridges to get around things. They're going to omit information. They're going to do things that don't allow them to feel safe communicating with you. I don't see that as deception. feel I own that say I'm not doing something to inspire them to feel safe enough to tell me their truth from their perception. And so.

18:29 I'm always trying to deeply understand how that individual sees the world through their context, their lens or optic, their ethnicity, all these things, because I it's an amazing habit to get into. But when you start. Trying to understand why, even why and how and what the purpose is for someone's communication with you and how they're communicating with you, it gets you much deeper. It's like as I just I just let go of judging it. When I hear something

18:59 or I encounter someone that's communicating me with me in a way that's unexpected. I get so excited. like, I'm going to experience something very new right now. It just gets it. And so it took a lot of years of failing the, the, the judgments to get to the point where I get excited with curiosity when I hear, see and experience someone different. I probably think one of the ways that helped that a lot, I, I, read a lot of books.

19:28 And, uh, human behavior books, obviously, but those kind of, you've run out of those after a while, believe it or not. Everyone's kind of pretty much saying the same thing. Um, but I love biographies and history books exploration. Right now I'm reading the explorations Lewis and Clark, um, going across the United States in the 18, early 1800s. And I just got done reading, uh, wide, wide C James Cook's third expedition around the world.

19:52 Um, before or after that red mutiny on the bounty, know, because Bly was one of James Cook's is lieutenants on his third expedition. So, um, William Bly, you know, and then, you know, it all started with her in a Shackleton explore exploring Antarctica, you know, so what happens is, is you start seeing. And probably the most profound thing I got from those was James Cook. And if you're, I'm a sci-fi fan as well, you know, there.

20:16 One of the hypothesis is that Captain Kirk of the Starship enterprise is kind of modeled after James Cook. And the most amazing thing about James Cook is that compared to even Lewis and Clark was he, and this is, this is what was really profound. So here's this Explorer in the, I think his early 1800s or maybe late 17. I'm so sorry if I'm off on my ears that was sailing around the world. He encountered, he had hundreds upon hundreds of first contacts.

20:46 with indigenous people from all over the world that had never seen Europeans before. And he is a European Christian in a time period where they loved inflicting their own tribal bias onto others. And he didn't. He was eventually killed in the Hawaiian Islands on his third expedition because he lost that ability. There was something going on psychologically with him, I think, and he started getting angry when he wasn't getting angry before anyway.

21:16 something went awry and so it kind of focuses on those last couple years. But for all these other hundreds, I'm thinking about this hundreds of first contacts where you don't speak the language, where you have zero morals, ethics, and religion in common with anyone. And he makes a landing with arms outstretched, no weapons in his hands, and says, be my friend. And he was successful, because he let go of those tribal confirmation biases when he made those first contacts. He was

21:44 deeply deeply curious in a time frame in the history of the world where people generally weren't that way coming from a European nation like the UK. Anyway, again, long answer. My apologies. No, your answers are amazing, Robin. I want to speak to you about a bit of a funny one. Obviously, mean that both work in sales. I feel like everybody actually works in sales. might not you might not be selling something directly.

22:12 Well, one of the big ones that comes up is trust and build trust. you've got trust is a funny one, but like, can I build trust on a cold call? Can I build trust over time when building relationships? What's your I know it's one of the themes of the book. What's your take on trust and building and maintaining trust? It's the bedrock of relationships. It's the bedrock of everything. And as you said,

22:37 we're all in the sales business and the only thing you're really ever selling is you. And what you're selling is can this individual trust me to solve the problem, challenge, priority, or pain point in their life with my resources? Because there's a lot of people with the same resource, but why you? Why you? Because they trust you. And how do you do that? It starts with you gotta make it about them. And we say it,

23:02 And these things can become assumed knowledges for people. Well, first you build rapport, then you make it about them. Then you offer a resource to solve their problem. And people brush right through the rapport and make it about them. Like all my years ago in the Marine Corps, when I got ranked last, dead last out of all the other second lieutenants, I probably told the story before you all, but you know, when you suck so bad, but then you own your behavior and say, what am I doing wrong? And you're told subjectively, well, that's easy. You just need to be a better leader.

23:32 What? thought I was. Tell me specifically how and what do I do to be a better leader? And then I was told, well, you just need to make it about everyone else but yourself. Well, that's what I, I know that the books and literature say that, but I thought I was what specifically am I not doing to make it about everyone else but myself? I don't know. Figure it out. That's what I was told. So therein lies the great challenge of us all, but I'm to tell you right now, this is exactly what you do.

24:00 in order to make it about others in order to start that, that road of inspiring trust in order to shift that focus and allow people. Cause trust is based on people feeling safe with you safe with their choices that they're not being taken advantage of that, that you're not trying to manipulate them. There's a few simple things and I center everything. There's lots of all these behaviors, but I really center things on our communication first, make it about them by number one.

24:27 And it's my chapter on communication is seek their thoughts and opinions about whatever it is you're trying to do instead of sharing yours first. Two, speak in terms of their challenges, priorities, pain points and friction points in life, tell them instead of sharing your struggles and what's going on with you. Three, be non-judgmentally validating of those thoughts and opinions they're sharing and deeply

24:54 Actively curious I use that word active curiosity in other words You don't be passive about it kind of like what I just did with you Zach You know just a few minutes ago. That's why we have great examples just from this conversation What was that spark and inspiration for you two to get together and do this great work together? And you went back to we met when we were 15 and then I said well, we'll stop right there So active curiosity was instead of letting you know I'm being rude and interrupting but instead of letting you go on that journey I had a spark of wow 15 years old. What was it?

25:23 know how when what got you to first together that's act of curiosity and then you do so without that judgment in other words without Imposing as y'all already talked about already that that tribal confirmation bias is like ooh My tribes different from yours. I am placed on this planet to have a memorable day each and every day I do that by learning something experiencing something new because that's what will be remembered and then finally

25:49 which gives people a great feeling of safety, security and prosperity is you empower them with choice about how to move forward. I love using the word if people in sales that are insecure about their product service and even themselves, they have a hard time offering people a choice. Like if you're comfortable doing that, if you're willing to move away, great, just let me know. If not, let me know. If you're comfortable being a resource to the national security of the United States, let me know. If not, help me understand.

26:19 What it would take for you to feel safe to do that. All these words are using if, if, if because each one of those things shifts the focus from you, shifts it to them. It demonstrates that you value them. It demonstrates that you're present for them. You see them and you're offering to be part of something greater than just themselves. In other words, you're offering them a great opportunity to be in a great healthy relationship. Those are the behaviors because now think here's another imagery thing I love to do.

26:46 which kinds of relates the power and impact on this. Think about, and for everyone listening, just think about this for one second. Think about during the course of your day, or month, who do you absolutely love and can't wait to see walk around that corner where the door opens up and here they come or the email comes in on the phone or the iPad and you see that name pop up.

27:11 And you're like, and you don't even look open up right away. like, I'm going to hold this for a second because I just can't wait to see what they have to say. So you think about this person in your life that you have. And now that you got it now ask yourself what specifically are they doing that inspires you to feel that way? I guarantee you it's one of those four things. And most of the time they're asking about what's going on in your life by seeking your thoughts and opinions, being non judgemental and curious about.

27:40 everything come out of your mouth, they're actively then curious about pursuing all those things that you're sharing. And now the last part of this is now ask yourself, are you that person for someone else? When you're about to sell something, are you that person that they can't wait to see walk around that corner? And how do I do that? You seek their thoughts and opinions, talk in terms of their priorities, challenge their pain points, be non-judgmentally curious, and ultimately you give them a choice.

28:07 Every time I admit a new confidential human source, a potential one for the FBI, my last thing I'd always say to a brand new person was, and let me know whatever your questions are. Because if we walk away from this conversation and you ask and say to yourself, I wonder what he really wanted. I've completely failed you. This is all about what I can do for you. I don't have an ask today. I just want to learn about you. I want to offer all these things to you and you can do it in 30 seconds. Here's my, my, my cold pitch. I'd walk into one of my jobs in working counterintelligence is

28:36 all these cleared contractors that are government contractors in my area here in Virginia, I had like four to 600 of them. I had to offer myself as a resource for them because they might have intelligence about companies, foreign entities, nation states that might be trying to compromise them, hack in, get emails in, spam, phishing, all these things. And if I didn't have an in, I'd literally knock on the front door and say, hello, my name's Robin Drake, I work here at local office of the FBI, I work in the world of counterintelligence.

29:04 I did a little bit of research on your company online. Looks like you deal with a lot of different individuals. You probably have a beautiful baseline of what normal looks like in your life. I want to let you know what my resources are. I can give briefings that can help improve this, this, and this if you want. If you have anyone that you might be a little curious about that is trying to solicit business from you, if you want, you can run it by me. I can do some checks for you. I can give you an unbiased opinion to whether that's something you're comfortable moving forward with or not. If any of sounds to you,

29:32 If not, let me know and I'll completely leave you alone. The entire conversation is 30 seconds. I made it all about them. I'm offered a resource and I'm saying, Hey, if I'm off on my resources, let me know what else I could do for you. And if not, let me, I'll leave you completely alone because then you'll actually have a good positive brand. have a great resource. And you know what? I never had anyone say Robin, go away.

29:59 So Robin, this is a big question to take this where you want, but if trust has been broken in any form, can it be fixed again? Yes, but it's not up to you.

30:16 And so we'll analyze what happens when trust is broken. When trust is broken really at its basic level. And again, we'll draw a broad swap here. Um, when trust is broken, it means that someone no longer trusts you and you made them feel very insecure in an aspect of a place in their life. So in order to over, in order for them to start moving forward with trust with you again, you have to allow them to feel safe.

30:46 with you in the air of their lives that you made them feel insecure. And this can apply to business and applies to personal life, applies to everything. So first of all, like I said, it's not up to you. It's only up to them, their tempo, their speed, their requirements. And here's the requirements you have to be ready to do. You have to provide complete openness and transparency in whatever area of your life that you didn't allow them to feel safe in.

31:17 Whether it was you're hiding something on your cell phone from a spouse or whether it's information that you're dealing with with a business partner. Doesn't matter where it is. You have to have complete openness, transparency and honesty as much as they want at to the degree that they want at the tempo that they need it in order for them to feel safe with you again. That's a high, high order. Is it not? That's why I always say let's not break trust in the first place. And so the behaviors of trust are these.

31:46 So we have the keys to communication. have all these steps to make it about others. But here's the behaviors that inspire the greatest trust in others. And this goes to every, every aspect of their lives, whether you're, um, business partners, cohabitating partners, politicians, especially applied to politicians. You'll see how no one's doing it. And that is open, honest communication, transparency, honesty, and vulnerability. And vulnerability is really the key one in here because vulnerability,

32:15 is another dichotomy that people have a dichotomy between confidence and humility. Humility is the ability to be a great learner at all times and a student confidence brings forth that you know what you're doing, you have confidence in your strengths. Too much confidence we're arrogant, too little confidence we're just a little too wet of a wet noodle. And so it's always a balance but the big thing is there that humility and that's that vulnerability. In other words, own your behavior.

32:44 Be transparent with it. I have no problem telling people exactly what I suck at. really, really, I probably, I am, we're all our own harshest critics. We're harder on ourselves than we're ever harder on others. There's the science and that's really solid as well. I am incredibly harsh on myself and I have no problem sharing with everyone where I am harsh on myself because I know I have a skill set. As I said, my skill sets of being a father, I can, I'm a great dad. I could be better. That's what I'm working on every day.

33:13 Um, but that's my skillset, but all those life's humbling lessons along the way, they were great reps that gave me the skillset to be who I am today and have strategies that can affect others because I sucked at it growing up. can give you the reasons why in my life arc of why I just sucked at it, how those behaviors came about. that in other words, when you are self reflective enough that you can have that vulnerability and humility, but enough confidence to know what you got out of it.

33:40 That's something I trust because what you're doing is, you're being completely transparent with every aspect of your life. And what's that doing to the person? now here's the empathy shift. The other person sees what they see everything they need to feel safe, making a decision with you. There's no subterfuge. There's no deception. There's no, I wonder what he really wants. I wonder if there's any manipulation in here. And then when you deliver it with complete congruency of the great language.

34:09 and the great emotion where these two are congruent and it's all about the other person, you're not creepy. The creepy people are the ones that are saying the right things, but they're really here to take advantage of you. Our ancient primal brain picks up on this and we're like, yeah, something's a little off. Yeah, you're right, something's off. You might be guessing wrong at what that off is, but when you're picking up on something off, there's some incongruencies. Start kind of probing to discover what's causing those incongruencies in your life. A lot of times incongruencies are caused because someone feels unsafe.

34:39 So they're gonna be a little guarded. Well, once we can explore those things and they're not guarded with you and they can trust and it goes both ways, creepiness will potentially float away. But if the creepiness stays, that means something's off and we take a step back. lower, slow our tempo down. in the, I'm a pilot in the aviation world, we always say there's no emergency takeoffs because every emergency takeoff is going to cause an emergency landing. So let's take our time before we engage if we're feeling something's a little off.

35:08 And long narrative answer, I'm sorry, death by Robin, call it. No, don't, it's all these beautiful answers. And nice short one for you. So we have different guests from different schools of psychology, different schools of communication. Is it possible to persuade someone? Sure. You persuade someone, you can convince someone, you can manipulate someone. Absolutely. And those are words I just I hate.

35:37 Personally because persuade influence and manipulate are all the same thing to me Convince someone's another word all those words and individually if you look them up in a dictionary actually talk about them on my book in a chapter called inspire Because influence persuade is about things that we want we we we me me me want you to do Now granted they can be very altruistic. They can be very forthright. They can be very

36:05 beautiful things you're trying to persuade and influence someone to do, but it's still about you inflicting your will on someone else, which is fine. Just I like to me, like I'm saying, we've talked about, there's no right or wrong here. It's not good or bad. It just is just own that. That's what you're attempting to do. What I try to subscribe to is I, I like inspiring people because inspiration is about you. So when I'm communicating, all I'm trying to do is I'm trying to

36:35 be a resource for you unlocking and something a desire in you. other words, inspiration comes from within the other person. So instead of trying to convince someone or persuade them to your point of view, I hope I can inspire them to want to listen to me. Because in order to inspire someone, you have to make it about them and they have to feel safe and trust you with the communication. And so I wholeheartedly focus on inspiring because.

37:03 it helps you let go of the me in the moment because you are making it about them. And how do you inspire someone? Well, you got to seek their thoughts and opinions. You have to talk in terms of priorities, challenge pain points. You can make it about them and be curious and empower them a choice because because then the whole process is less focused on what I'm trying to get you to do and focus on trying to discover what's within them and see if I have something that can be a resource for them. That's what keeps our brain forcing the shift, forcing the shift, forcing the shift.

37:32 And ultimately, if you can't, okay, now we have to be okay with saying, I'm going to have an average day and just walk away. I need to make it about them. Cause then when you do that, what happens? You're in sales. You get great, great personal brand. Cause if not them, they'll refer you to someone else. Okay. That's great.

37:56 Yeah, 100%. We're singing off the same hymn sheet with that one. We're always trying to, can we just get someone to think deeply about the problem that we solve? And if they make a decision to work with us, great. But if they make a decision to not work with us after having that thought process, then that's okay too. Plenty of room to say no. So we're singing off the same hymn sheet. So you're a father, Robin. So are we. We're fathers of young boys. How old are your children? If you don't...

38:24 mind the question? Yeah, so my son's a 24 year old Marine Corps pilot and my daughter's a 26 year old labor and delivery nurse. Wow. Okay. So you must be very proud and you can probably give us some insight here. So we've got very young children. What is true about negotiating my four year olds bedtime that is true when you're negotiating your 26 year old coming to visit you at Christmas?

38:53 Yeah, four is a rough age. Four is a rough age. Those ages are rough because our role in that age group is their safety, really. And you're basically instilling in them your tribal mentality of your morals, ethics, beliefs, and how to interact in the world in a healthy, safe way. So bedtimes, eh.

39:20 You know, I'm not a big reward or or punishment kind of guy. I like making about the other person. My my my wife generally handled the bedtimes at that age. So I, you know, I started coming around more around the five or six age group. When when basically when they start a little bit older, when they start hitting middle school is when my skill set started really starting to take hold a little bit more. And we always just.

39:48 And also, I mean, you can do this with a four year old too, believe it or not. I call it playing the tape forward. You know, we do this. So I stopped drinking years ago. And one of the ways that if someone gets in the bad habit of drinking too much becomes an addictive habit. And one way that people overcome addictive habits is to play the tape forward. And you can do it with every aspect of life. My son and I do it every aspect of interacting with human beings. So

40:17 Let's say that you want to go to bed late and you don't want to go bed now. Well, let's play that tape forward. What will that look like tomorrow morning when you get up cranky, when you get up grouchy or when you get up too late and I was going to make breakfast at six. But if you get up at, you know, if you go to bed too late, you're not going to get breakfast at six where I'm going to make pancakes. You're going to get breakfast at seven. And so you're just going to have this. You make your choice on how you want to move forward with this, but going to bed late is going to have this cause and effect. So we just talked about playing it forward with cause and effect.

40:46 And so I would do the same thing with my kids, especially as I started getting to middle school, especially starting getting into high school. We just had discussions about. And I know it's especially with today's kids, it's, hard to say, like when I was growing up, it's like, what do want to be when you grew up? Okay. Let we'll pursue that. Now they're less like that. So I always stay start with what path do you think you want to start walking down?

41:09 you know, what, what direction do we want to explore? Cause a lot of times if you don't know what you want to do, just pick a path so we can at least decide what you don't want to do. Let's just pick a path and start walking and see what we like or don't like along that path. And so as each of my kids picked the path, all I started doing was becoming an executive assistant on that path. And I, and so every time they came up with a decision point or did something that I thought was incongruent with playing that action forward on their path, we'd sit down and say, Hey,

41:38 How does doing this help you on your path of what it is you're trying to achieve? if they got resistant or anger, I'm not telling you what to do or not do. I'm just telling you this action, as we discussed, is going to play forward incongruently with what you're trying to achieve and do. You hired me as your executive assistant. I'm just telling you what the cause and effect is. If you want me not to say these things, pick a different path, and we'll move down that one.

42:05 What I mean by that is so like my son who wanted to go to the Naval Academy, we both went there. He in the area we live, he had to have grades. He had to have everything so, so high up here in order to be competitive to get in there. My daughter went to a university here in Virginia to become a nurse. Still high qualifications and everything, but it was not apples and oranges, but she could come in a little bit lower down here with what she needed to do.

42:33 And so I remember one time in high school, my son asked me, so dad, how come you're not on, on Caitlin, like you're on me with grades and everything? said, that's easy. Switch your goal.

42:45 I said, you want me to be easier? No problem. It's not me being easier as you just, I'm just here for you to be that conscious, to be that executive assistant, to be a resource for you achieving what is you want to achieve. You know, you're the point man on this. You want to choose a different destination, choose it and I'll be your, I'll be your assistant and backup on that. So I play things forward to their, to their, and it's more like, I guess, like a Vulcan and Spock and on the logical stoic mind on how to move forward. Just because.

43:13 I just like saying let's just talk about the cause and effect of this. And then also, what's this look like to the people around you? Who are you going to be impacting? Who might be impacted negatively by the things you're going to do? Because if that means something to you, let's play that one forward. And then so we can say, all right, and now here's what's really great. If they say, well, I just want to go to bed late anyway or not go to bed now, all right, let's give it a shot. Let's see what it looks like tomorrow morning. And then when it doesn't go so well, you know what? What a great experiment. You won't be doing it that way again, will you? OK, next.

43:46 I love the framing of it and then it's a case of let it play out, you've got the evidence and it's the same in sales. like we are just here. We talk about it as the lazy river. My job isn't to kind of like drag you and make you do something. I'm just here to guide you. Like I'm nudging you along in the direction I'm asking you questions, I'm getting you to think deeply. And some of the things you were saying were maybe my...

44:13 My mother might have studied negotiation because some of the things that you were saying there, think she was like, you want to be this rock star? Okay. But if you go around smashing things up in the local town, then maybe you'll never make it or it will have a knock on effect. So that stuck with me. Okay. Robin, I could talk to you all day. I want to hit you with one last question. I always find that when we speak to authors, that there's definitely things you...

44:40 you learn about yourself and maybe things you haven't uncovered yet. what things have, I'll use the word inspired instead of influenced, but how has writing this book inspired your own approach to relationships and building those alliances?

45:01 Every so everything in the book is it's pretty current, you know, as opposed to a lot of writing processes I've been through, which are delayed by a couple of years, you know, from writing, publishing, dealing with that, editing. This one I finished writing in August of 2023, and it's coming out about a year later. So everything's really pretty current to how I'm seeing and engaging the world right now, which is kind of unusual for me. I haven't. I haven't.

45:31 I learned a lot from my past books that I was able to put into this book to do hopefully better. I wanted to write a better book. wanted to put out, I always think my information and content is very, very good in the moment that I'm writing it. And this content is very, very good in the moment that I wrote it. But I want to do a much better job of conveying it to others so that people would want to consume it.

45:58 And so what I learned in this process, even before I started the process is what I wanted to do differently. One of the things that I included in here a little bit more robustly was a chapter on mastery. In other words, moving beyond the paint by number and how to become an artist of human interaction. And so I have a lot of exercises I put into this for people to practice on their own daily. That was a thing that was really important to me. Another thing that was really, really important to me that

46:24 Ryan Holliday stoicism writer said that every great book should give you at least a couple other books to read That inspired you and so in this book I I reference probably I got a count at all I I've referenced in my notes probably about 22 or 24 other amazing authors that I was able to draw from that infused me as well and so if you also read this book, you're gonna get some great other resources on on phenomenal content authors

46:53 that can also help mold things out. that's part of it. And also I wrote it very much in the style of my first self published books. So it's, uh, I think it's 240 words. So out of my three, out of this would be my fourth book out of all my books. It's my second, uh, shortest. The other two are longer. The code of trust is my longest, uh, size of people up is a little bit shorter, but this is a shorter one because I want it to be really consumable.

47:19 The anecdotes and stories are used, there's still FBI anecdotes and stories, but also every chapter has a relatable business story as well in it. So I try to be able to show an interesting story, lighten down to make it consumable, not too burdensome to read, as well as a life story in there. And also, my other two books, Sizing People, have had an arc story that went throughout it. This one doesn't. Every chapter is completely standalone.

47:48 So there's no you don't have to read one chapter to know the story of the next chapter So every chapter is kind of a standalone very much like Jocko with Lincoln lay Fabin wrote extreme ownership As I like that model as well as well as on Chris Voss has never split the difference phenomenally written business book on negotiation and so I'd really try to I Tried to take the best out of this book I mean I tried to put the best into this book that I learned from so many other great writers because I'm not a great writer so I tried to put

48:17 really great content to my mediocre writing skills in this one to try to make it as consumable as possible because content is very solid and very good and can have a profound positive impact in someone's life. And I hate saying things like that because it sounds extremely egocentric, but it's really meant to inform and not be a me former. So hopefully it'll go well. You've mentioned some of our favorite books there and we had Chris on the podcast.

48:47 But from what you said on mastery, I've got to ask you now, what are some of the low-stake games that you would suggest to the listeners in terms of becoming a master of communication? What are some of the things that we can leave our audience with before we let you go that they should be practicing with their partners, their kids? What are some of those low-stake games? I'm to go back to those four keys of communication. They're really

49:15 key and paramount. I'll repeat them again. And out of all those four, I'll give something you can, everyone can do every single day. Cause this isn't about flipping a switch. If you're not going to go from zero to a hundred, um, James clear, another great author on atomic habits. This is about making one small habit today, a new habit in your life. And here's what's really good too. Think about this thing out of all the things we've talked about on this show. And I'll go through those four keys of communication again, pick one you're already doing.

49:45 because it's much easier to get better at something you're already doing than to pick something you've never done before and try to get good at. I'm not saying not to do that. Do that as well. But if you want to start hitting a mastery level, pick something you have a natural affinity and natural talent that you're automatically doing. In other words, if you're a person that is naturally always asking someone, Hey, so what's going on with you today? What's new in your life this week? Try to be a little bit more conscious and do it maybe one or two more times a day.

50:13 And then here's the big thing. So here's a great mastery exercise. I have one ask a what question instead of a why question. I call it the power of what because asking a what question helps someone be specific and it's generally a more open-ended question that gives you a lot of content to explore. like with Zach, Zach, what was a spark and inspiration for you and Jack to get together instead of saying, why did you and Jack get together?

50:38 That could be very defensive. could get shields up. You know, it's like, Oh, is he challenging me? No. Ask what, what was that spark and inspiration? So make it a what question. And then our natural brain is inclined to try to affiliate with you by saying, well, here's my story. Here's the second part of the, of this simple mastery, um, technique and skill to start practicing after you ask that great what question then as your brain is wanting to engage with your own story and anecdote to test that affiliation.

51:09 Suspend it put it aside completely get rid of it and follow up with what they said Be actively curious about the things that they shared in that moment and pick one to explore It's like what was new with you this week, you know, it's like oh you're talking about, know The co-parenting that Neil Strauss was doing with his kids. Oh my next follow-up question said oh, it's like in this example is great I followed up with I just talked to Neil Strauss the other day What I should have said if I'm being actively curious and we'll exercise this ooh

51:37 What inspired you guys to talk about co-parenting? See the difference there? Instead of following up with me, me, me, I followed back up with you. And it's following a train of thought is something that you were talking about already. So try that. Everyone practice that. If you do that one or two more times a day than you're doing right now, you cascade that over a week, a month or a year, you start becoming that person. People can't wait to see you walk around that corner.

52:06 And now you have a habit that is unbreakable because you're always in that habit of making it about them.

52:13 I love it. I love it. And I feel inspired and I want to go and speak to everybody. Robin, if people want to check you out, they want to get your new book. Where can they find you? Where can they find it? Simple and easy. RobinDreek.com. R-O-B-I-N-D-R-E-E-K-E.com. And I actually, just put up on my website a new page on there called Behavior Corner. That is a link to

52:43 broken down and categorize a lot of my videos. have behavior videos and training on there. It's all free. All my YouTube channels categorize on there, including what I do for true crime. do a lot of true crime analysis and commentary on a podcast. That's all on there. Um, and also the books are on there. There's a page for my books and, but you can order, you can preorder it on Amazon. Um, it comes out on October 29th and hopefully it'll become a treasure trove in your life because it's, it's about

53:12 getting this level of mastery. The exercises I put in here, there's four exercises per chapter and there are eight chapters. So there's 32 life skill exercises to practice at the end of this book. You pick your tempo, you pick one a day and you start doing these and you get those reps in every day. Holy cow. You're a person I want in my life too. Robin, thank you so much for joining us.

53:37 Hey, thank you all. Thanks for what you do. It's a lot of work and effort. So everyone that's listening to it, please share Zach and Jack with all your friends, all their episodes. They put a lot of work and effort all for you all. So thanks for what you all do.