00:03 Hello and welcome to another episode of the revenue career ladder, where we dive deep into the career journeys of revenue focused professionals to give you real insights, actual tips, and maybe even a little reassurance that the journey is yours to define. So in this episode, I am joined by Hannah Ajikawa, and we're going to be chatting about her journey from food market stores to CEO and founder. So without further ado, how are you Hannah? I am really good, but I do have a really

00:31 painful to fake. That's just crept up on me today. So yeah, if I don't know if I'm going to talk as much as I usually do, which would be a shock to me when I'm well, thanks for asking. So for anyone listening, if this episode is shorter than the rest, we know we know why.

00:50 Right. So we're going to, we usually start these episodes with, um, a brief chat about your first ever job, which you, you've put a couple down, but the first one I want to start with is your uncle's, um, is it, so you've got it down as your uncle's school is was your uncle's school. And then there was food market stores at the school. Explain. Definitely a typo. So, um, so my, uh, I, my, my, mum's Jamaican and my dad's Nigerian and, uh, my uncle, my mom's side.

01:19 Her older brother had a stall in our local market. So still is an STO STL. Um, she had a local store and me and my friend used to go and work there during the holidays to get pocket money. So, um, from the age of about 13, I used to work in the store and he disappeared for most of the day. I don't know where he went, but we were left in a shop. Um, so I had to get used to like working out, you know, the old school tills, um, stock, like customer service. And I'm, I'm

01:49 I was really short for my age at 13. I looked about nine. Um, I had really chubby cheeks. I was very round, um, really curly, long hair, surprise, surprise. And, uh, and then there was just like, yeah, me and me and my mate. And then after that we like run home. So that's where I started out. Oh yeah. I've got, I've got it. So one of those tills that actually had like the paper that comes out of the top of it, the like receipt roll. Yeah. You'll have to receive roles. When that ran out, I had to get used to trying to change that. And then you also, you'd have like people who would steal from the shop.

02:18 So you'd be like, do I stop them? I'm a kid, or do I just like let them go? What do we do? So it was really, really weird and wacky experience. But I also found out that I didn't get, really get paid. So we worked there a whole six weeks holiday and we got paid in like groceries for our parents and we were fuming. So this is, I didn't work for my parents. I worked so I could get some change. I said, we can buy some sweets. Now I'm a big foodie. So talk to me about the...

02:48 types of food, what sort of thing were you selling on the store? Oh man, it's just all Afro Caribbean food, right? So all of the typical seasonings and drinks imported from all around the world. You'd have all of the, um, we also had, uh, like some hot foods. So we'd sell like Jamaican patties, like beef patties. I mean, I definitely, definitely had my fair share of those on the store as well. Um, so yeah, just like, you can just imagine an off license, but just full of Afro Caribbean.

03:17 African Indian foods and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. The strangest thing we sold was pigtails. So it's not for everyone. Interesting pigtails, very strong smell. Um, but yeah, it was awesome. And ironically, the shop next door to my uncle's store was my mum's cousin's shop and he owned a record store. So you had like the whole, like the whole family on just like one side of the street. So yeah, they were there for like 20 plus years. That sounds like the perfect mix. So you've got records and you got food, music and food. Perfect. Sorted.

03:45 Exactly. And I love to my uncle, well, my mom's cousin would step away from his stuff because I'm like, yes, I'm happy dealing with records, but trying to restock the pigtails was not, it was not really fun. Stinky. So I'm a, see, I'm a, I'm a pork crackling, uh, pork scratching, sorry, pork scratching is fine, but are they crispy or are they uncooked? So they're uncooked, but you usually like put them in some kind of stew or like a Caribbean soup. So you'd have like pigtail soup. So.

04:12 served in a cup, usually if you're out and about or just like a small bowl, just be nice and hearty. Um, so yeah, interesting, but tasty. Okay. Enough about food. Cause I am, my stomach's rumbling already. Um, so your first, that was your first sort of unpaid labor. Like, you know, even, even when I was, uh, I was younger, I think I had a paper round that was like another common unpaid labor job, but your first, um, what was your first, um, dare I say,

04:41 proper job, your first sort of, you were on some sort of payroll or there was, there was actually a HR department. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. That not doing my dad's invoices. So, um, doing my dad's invoices helped me to secure my first temp role. So, um, interest, I was talking about this yesterday, actually at a dinner. Um, so I, I, um, I applied for lots of roles. I think the company, I can remember the company, actually, it was a temping. They did like, well, to what I understand now, like big managed services for a lot of big companies in Canary Wharf.

05:11 So I was fortunate enough, the rep who was representing the role that I applied for, which is like data entry, had no idea what, who the client was. Um, it was like seven quid an hour or seven pounds. And at that time, what 17 years, this is like 2006 or something. Um, at that time I was like, I don't really need that much money, but I'm not working in retail because you get paid four pound an hour.

05:39 at our age and you have to work extra hours. I was like, why do you finish at nine or eight and you're still there till 11? Makes no sense to me. So I ended up working applying for this data entry role through this company called Williams Lee. And then I ended up walking into Merrill Lynch Investment Bank, which is no longer around and was like, oh wow, like just literally the riddle of the city turning up my little suit. And that was my first job. So I did data entry and worked out really quickly that it was paid by the hour, but it was a full time gig during summer.

06:09 So I could make enough money doing full-time in summer to kind of last me the whole term. I didn't really have any special things. I went into makeup, I went into fancy clothing. I just kind of like survived. So yeah, that was it. And then I ended up doing that same temping job, but just in all the different investment banks, Barclays Capital, and also some of the consulting firms, so Accenture, Ernst & Young. And I used to do all of the stationary. So I used to make business cards for really senior directors and get paid 14 pound 50 an hour.

06:39 I felt rich, like I literally was rich. And I just sat down and in my break, I do my university work. And then I go back to delivering mail or doing business cards. And I didn't know what I didn't know then, right? But I'm around all of these very, very wealthy and smart individuals. And then I just got more curious. I'm like, so the people that sit in offices make lots of money. I need to go find myself an office job. That was just my perception.

07:08 That's an interesting logic though, because I'm thinking, right, back when I was, yeah, I think mine was like £5.50 an hour or something like that. So when you say £14.50 an hour, I can imagine the feeling of absolutely rolling in it, like when that paycheck comes in, trainers, galore. Yeah, 900 quid a week, it worked out to be. I was like, no tax, only NI, it was amazing. Bring me back to those days. God, yeah.

07:35 The good old days. So, okay. So you kind of figured out, connected to the dots, the people who were in offices, uh, earned the big money. So was that when you was at the end of uni connecting those two dots? So I finished uni, I needed a gig. People in the offices seem to earn a lot more money. I need to go and find a job in a office. No, you know what? It didn't click yet. So I, so what happened is I, I started asking some questions.

08:02 I found out my brother, so random, I found out that my brother's, one of his really close friends girlfriend worked at Barclays Capital. So they were like, make sure you go and say hello. So I went to her and I was like, how the hell did you get a job here? And she goes, I said, what did you study? What grade did you get? She's like, oh, I did psychology. I said, how are you working in investment banking and sales? This is so random. And I was like, what is sales as well? And I remember her saying, you know, I got a two one and I just, I don't know, I just, I applied for the role. There's lots of graduate schemes.

08:32 So I then thought, okay, I'm gonna apply for these roles. But what happened is during uni, my last year I started looking at all these roles and you needed like an A at GCSE to get into those banks. And I'm like, I didn't get a damn A at GCSE. I got B but surely like I've got a first-class degree here. I mean, I'm smart I think. But it didn't work. So I thought, let me just, I also am really passionate about solving crime. So I studied criminology, social policy. So I went to apply for lots of roles for the government.

09:02 So probation services, forensic detective, I got trapped again by like, you didn't get an A at GCSEs. I was like, what is this thing? And then you could like retake it and it all got complicated, but I was like, you know what, I'll figure something out. Let me go back to that office idea. And then, um, yeah, slowly found a sales job when it found me by accident. So yeah, interesting. Well, when you say it found you by accident, what'd you mean? Um, I went to a job fair cause that's what you did back in the day. You walked around all of these halls.

09:30 picks up lots of brochures. And I just got a bit tired. And just before I left, there was a guy on a stand and he was on his own. And I thought, oh, just go to him. And I went to him and I just said, what's this? It just had lots of these, all these, I can't remember what the sign said, but it was like, make money. And I was like, that's what I need. And he just said, oh, it's sales. You know, you have to go out there, knock on doors. You got to sell products. And I was like, okay, so how does it work? How do you make this money? He's like, well, you get, you get a commission, you get paid a portion of what you sell. I was like,

09:59 Is that it? That sounds simple. So I think I applied for that thing. Lo and behold, that turned out to be some really dodgy company. It was actually in the news. And what they were doing is they were preying on graduates. Graduates would sign up and you have no base salary. I know that's quite typical in the US, but it's not very typical here, particularly when you come out of university of a good good grade from a good uni. I didn't know anything. I was first generation university. I didn't know what I didn't know. So, yeah. But what that did teach me is I liked the idea of sales.

10:29 So then I went with a proper recruitment consultant and found my first role in recruitment. Okay. And the, when you say actually, yeah, it's quite interesting when you say, I think I can remember that like period where loads of these companies basically were in the news for ripping off students, um, for, for their labor. Um, what was your first dabble in sales then? What was your first like official step into sales? Yeah. First.

10:56 First day in sales was actually my birthday. So the 7th of October, 2008, strolling into Holborn to start my job as a graduate recruitment consultant. So that's where it all started. And then of course they just started to announce, oh my God, we're going into a recession. We're having the credit crunch. There's no jobs. And I physically saw people walking out of offices with boxes in their hands, leaving their jobs, crying. So what?

11:24 don't think this is a good industry for me. And then I think within like two months, they, they took like 20% of our wages. It just took it away. I was like, well, this is, this isn't going to work. Um, I was making more, making business cards in Canary Wharf. So, um, so then I again, found another recruitment consultant and they said, Hey, um, got this really good client. We work with them for years called Experian QAS. They, you know, QAS, they're bought by Experian, huge company and everyone knew Experian then for like the credit, credit checks. And I said,

11:54 Okay. He said, listen, it's a long shot. They're really strict and who they let through, but let's put you forward. I think you've got a great profile. Great. Like you just sound like you've got great attitude and them and the air. And I did a great job in the interview. Someone gave me a chance and yeah, that's where I really started my sales career where it's like training crazy, everything. And yeah, absolutely rollercoaster. And was it the, in terms of like choosing that role, was it, that was the first role that sort of piqued an interest.

12:23 with that recruiter or was it right? I want to move the markets terrible. We all know I used to work for a founder who had a recruitment company as well. So I know how volatile the market can be and how tight it can be. So was it that you were just looking for the first decent job to get out of that industry? It wasn't. I didn't want to get out of the industry. I just wanted to be trained. I'm like, I don't know anything about business. I don't know anything

12:52 If you put me in front of something, I'm going to do what I need to do. Cause that's what I proved throughout my like academic career and just anything I did like sports wise, and I used to do performing arts, all those things. So, um, I'm just like, just give me direct, I just need direction. And that company couldn't provide anything other than on my first day, open the newspaper and call the fast track 500. And that was it. So I knew once they slashed the wages. There was like one person that was performing, but she'd been there for years. She just threw it for all the crap. And I said, I need to leave. So.

13:21 I left and my goal was I need to find somewhere where I can actually earn money, but I can also learn I need to be like crafted. And when they were talking through roles, I actually still applied for a lot at the time a lot of the other recruitment consulting firms. So there was like Pareto law, you could apply for jobs there, but also apply for jobs through there. It was just lots of I can't remember all of them, but lots of really well known recruiting companies at the time, probably all amalgamated or something now. But they were again, like,

13:52 Hardcore training, very aggressive, get on the phones. I loved all of that. That wasn't ever an issue. I just loved the fact that I was training, but didn't get through some of those jobs, pulled out of a few and then experience just stood out to me because I like that it was tech. And I'm like, well, I like technology, I'm always using it. So yeah, let me go sell some technology. So yeah, that's what appealed to me the most then. And what was your, what was the job title? What did you enter? Yeah, so it was the equivalent of an SDR.

14:21 So we, we, it was called a business development executive, which is funny because now that's a relatively senior title, depending on which company you're at. So came in as a BD, a BDE, and it was part of a team of 10 BDs. I'm reporting into one leader and then we, that kind of like reported up. But what, again, what I liked about experience was they had a really well-known graduate program. It was really well known in the industry. I made a lot of people who had started there. They didn't have high attrition rates. So people would stay.

14:49 And they had a very, very clear plan for what five years would look like, what 10 years would look like. So they literally would talk you through, do this in six months, you'll be here. Do this in 18 months, you'll be here. Achieve these targets. And at the time it was like, when you get to here, you get you, this is the pay you get, this is the car you get, this is the phone you get, this is a laptop you get, it's like you get promoted here. This is the car you get, this is the, like, it was so clear. I was like, well, that's it. I don't know. This is perfect. It was nothing compared to that other time.

15:19 So honestly, getting a role there, you were like, yes, this is amazing. So it sounds like they had, like you said, the years planned out. So how long did you stay there in the end? I ended up staying just shy of three years. Three years. So in those three years, what was the progression in terms of title or sort of role responsibilities? Did that change much? Yeah, so they are put it this way. After eight weeks, you haven't hit your target. You're in a pip.

15:48 I remember being put on a pip within like, yeah, by that time and was like, what the hell is this? This is really scary actually. It's like, you need to hit these targets or you're fired. It was like, what? Um, it's like, shit. So, um, yeah, got down and hit the target. And I was like, wow. Okay. So now, okay, I get what's going on here. This is real sales. Like you really have to do your thing. Um, so the, yeah, so you have a junior rep role at that time. And I love, I'd love to see more companies reinstating this. I promote it quite a bit on LinkedIn where.

16:17 We had to book 10 new meetings. We were the most expensive in the market and the most hated in the market. So to get 10 meetings a month was literally like closing an enterprise deal. It was unreal. So 10 meetings a month, you had to exceed that free, free months in a row in order to get promoted. So imagine exceeding it for one month. Then the next month you're like, oh, you have to do it again. Has to do that. And then once you did that, um, yeah, sorry, let me go back 10 means a month, but we also had a renewal target. So we had like anything between.

16:46 20 and a hundred K that we had to renew every month of existing customers, small ones. So once you did that, you move into, you get promoted into an internal account management. It's the first time you get to actually do net new business, but you still have that renewal target. So now you've got, you still got a bit of meetings, still got to get out there, but you book it with existing accounts and you've got upsell and cross-sell. And then once you do that, you can choose two paths. You can go down a direct sales route if there's any roles there, or you go down indirect. And I went down the indirect route to partners.

17:15 And it was well known at the time we had too many partners. I think I had 255 partners, multiple million pound target. And the way in which our commission worked back then was you get paid on margin. So they were very, very profitable business unit at the time. Mark Zaban, he's like head of everything now at some company, but he's really well known. And he used to come to our, he used to come to the office and be like, you are my favorite.

17:44 This is the most profitable business unit in my division. Um, so yeah, very fast pace. I've got up to like, um, account management, well, sorry, partnership management. Right. All those partners, all those end users sit within that you'd have hundreds and hundreds of end user customers that you have to make sure they were okay. Um, and this was all while we were helping our customers transition from on-premise to the cloud. So we were moving from sending out CDs. We used to set, that's when I started in sales, we used to send out the CDs.

18:12 We used to help them do API integrations over the phone. No WebEx. We had to direct people over the phone and be like, okay, so move your browser. If you go down to the bottom left and click the window symbol, it will open up. If you go up a few, there's a CD logo, click on that CD logo. Now click on API. Open it up. And I'm like, what do I do? That's what we have to do. That was how we got. So we had to sell it, put the meetings, sell it, manage the account, get them installed, get them set up, train them. And then.

18:41 Okay. Onto the next. And that was for like 200 quid. So it sounds alien, uh, like the CDs, but it, it, it's strange. Like I, again, I grew up in the era of floppy disks and CDs and massive external external monitors with, you know, massive backs on them. But it just sounds so wild now. Cause like you've got a screen share and all the that sort of technology or thing, not applications that just do it for you. So, okay. So you, you, you went in, you wanted to find a company, find a structure that would

19:10 Uh, you would learn basically the key thing was learning, developing. So in that three ish year period, then what were the key highlights for you from a learning point of view? The training, right? So we had, it was a very, very, it was the kind of sales environment that I, um, I really appreciated. There was some bad sides, of course, like it was very intense.

19:36 But I liked the transparency and I feel like a lot of companies can still learn from that, right? So you've got the leaderboards, the sales boards, everyone could see everything at any given time. Every deal closed is announced. Um, everything was super, super clear. We had a horrible CRM, but it was still very, it was super clear on what we could see things were tracked properly. We sold business information. So I inherently started to learn a lot about information and data and insights and research, how you interpret that from a really early age.

20:05 Um, but the training we got external training from a company called gazing performance, and they were all about, uh, bias centricity and the psychology of the buyer. So imagine like coming into sales and your first idea of what you think about when it comes to driving value is understanding how buyers make decisions. Hence why everything I do and talk about, I live and breathe by journeys, by experience and by psychology, because if inevitably the better we understand that the more in tune we are with that, better we can drive value, make money for everyone.

20:34 So that was my, that was what I was anchored in. I was anchored in understanding the buyer journey. I can remember the charts. I think I picked one up. They sent me one actually again, when I reached out, but it's somewhere in storage. But we had our little map. And if you ask anyone that I've worked to experience in that time, they, we all still have our maps from then from 2009. We still have our sales maps and the buyer journey, because it was just so ingrained in us, we'd have, they would, everything we did daily, we talk about it. We had quarterly training where we'd have free days out of the.

21:03 office in a room talking about it, role playing, acting it out, understanding the specifics, going through the journeys. So that was just like, and the process, the way in which they built strategy at the business, the way in which they trusted us with more business acumen type conversations. And there was just so much structure and a really strong engine. You could see why the

21:33 The other companies I went in afterwards, it was like stark contrast to the structure that they had there. So I've got some really good foundations and going to these new environments. I was like, okay, what's happening here? I don't know. I don't know how this works. What is happening here? Yeah, it's interesting. I had one of the earlier episodes in this series with Tom Hunt. He's he had a, or he spoke quite highly of Ernst and Young and you mentioned that name and like managed services and

21:59 I think he picked up on the same thing of like, he would recommend any junior going into a company like that for a few years, just to learn structure, like to learn tight processes. But I quite like your point about it was clear both positively and negatively. So if you do well, there's a clear progression. You can see it. There's a clear progression. This is what you're going to get. But also if you don't do well, this is what's going to happen. There's going to be this even there's still the same clarity. It's just, you'll be put on a pip. You've got this long. And then if you, you know,

22:29 the steps are probably if you jump past the pit, you're going to lose the job, but it's a hundred percent honesty and a hundred percent clarity, both positively and negatively, which like you said, I think is lost nowadays. I don't know whether it's because businesses are scared of, um, I don't want to use the word woke, but people are, people are afraid of, um, hurting people's feelings and sharing opinions too strongly. And I get the impression that a lot of companies would actually steer away from telling someone there.

22:58 they're not doing their job anymore. They would rephrase it differently and they would try and hide away from the areas you're not doing well in and they would, yeah, I would much prefer the clarity of this is good, this is bad, if you do bad, this is what happens, you do well, you'll smash it, that's what happened. I like that. Absolutely, and I think, you know, the thing that is unfortunately negative about some of those earlier career moments is I,

23:27 You know, I didn't realize that firstly being a woman or being a black woman and a black woman who shaves her hair would just create so much chaos that I wasn't aware of with regards to like my career, my prospects, because it would indirectly come up in conversations like, you know, there's been a couple of conversations about your hair and I'm like, what, the one that grows from my scalp? Like, what about it? I don't do anything else crazy. And I'm like,

23:57 what? So you like, you'd have stuff like that, you know, you wouldn't you weren't trusted very early on to go out and actually meet people. And it just took a new leader being like, let's go out to some meetings, let's go meet our partners. It was just so unheard of. And it's like, really? It's like, yeah, put on a suit. Let's go meet what we have to wear suits every day. That's another thing, which I quite like. I like dressing up smart. I just feel like I love I love putting a suit on. Yeah, I'm like, listen, if I had to go to if I had a job right now, has been office two or three days a week.

24:27 and we had to wear suits, I'd be absolutely fine with it. Like, I love it, you feel smart and everything else, but that's another conversation. But yeah, like, so it took a leadership shift, right, to really create a completely different culture where people felt like, okay, yes, we're in this, we're in this crazy incubator where we are creating some great salespeople, but at the same time, they're human, they're adults. Let's treat them like that. And then you start to see all these like people, like underdogs coming out and performing exceptionally well. And, you know, and before I left there,

24:57 national sales person of the year for my division. I spoke at our SKO. I did all these presentations. I was, you know, best friends basically with the national sales director. I just messaged her the other day, I got a mobile number we're going to catch up. So it's just stuff like that. All of that started to happen when you have a new leadership change and they're like, yeah, I don't know what all that crap was about before, but I think you're great. So were some of those cultural, I guess,

25:25 cultural, I don't know how to phrase it, but like, basically, I'm trying to understand, like, so it sounds like you were absolutely smashing it, you're doing well, the structure is great, you were learning loads. So at the point of like three years, what, what shifted that made you think, right, I'm ready for my next role? Was it that you wanted to learn more and they can provide it or was it that cultural shift? No, I, well, I stayed through being bullied in my role, which is really bad. I had a long period of time where I was being bullied and I didn't know.

25:54 as like the only, I wasn't the only, there was another Asian lady in my team and stuff, but as like just someone who did not identify very similarly to the rest of my team, you kind of take things and think, let me just leave it. But I remember getting to a point where I'm like, listen, they're about to bring out the hackney in me right now. I don't know what is happening right now. So let me just send an email to this director before I lose my shit. But I'm so calm. I...

26:21 I've never had a fight in my life. Like I'm almost faulty. I'm a really chilled person. So it was really strange to experience stuff like that. So, um, I remember sending an email to, you know, directors was being like, I don't know what this is, but I don't, I just didn't join this company thinking these are the experiences I'd have. And they were like, holy crap. Like, this is really bad. So I still stayed through that and I performed through that. Those times I left because just normal companies have to make decisions. And they were, they made some massive, massive shifts. They will be more integrated into the company that acquired them.

26:49 They changed comp plans and all these things and everyone, you know, everyone lost their shit there. They had a lot of people leave at the time. The roles that, you know how it is, the roles that were promised are no longer available. So it was like, okay, so I'm gonna go from year three to year four as a still as an internal account manager. That can't, that's, people are gonna start wondering why I weren't let out. Like, how are you not in the field yet? So I needed to get out and get a field role and that's why I left. But I didn't know, I was none the wiser that

27:18 an extra nine months wouldn't have been that bad. I just, I couldn't think of, I was just getting detached and I couldn't like reattach the business, even though when I left, they tried to get me to come back. And I always say that was my biggest regret, not going back actually. It's interesting you talk about the nine months. I think it's one of those age related things. So the older you get, the more you realize that time goes very, very quickly. When you're in your early twenties-ish,

27:47 probably probably through to your mid 20s. You think nine months is like an age. You're like, Oh my God, so long. I don't know if I could do nine months. Now I'm sitting here going with two thirds of the way through January and I can't even remember the last two weeks of January, like it goes so quick. But I think that's an age thing. You learn to appreciate time or you appreciate it in a different way. Okay then. So you touched on earlier that you had some other experiences later on of completely the opposite of

28:16 the structure. So was the was the next role the start of that lack of structure? Talk to us about the next role. So I'll just I'll give like a high level. So I was I was swayed into joining a startup. So I've got like big company publicly listed. That later structure, lots of promise, very clear career path, all of those things, stocks that I didn't understand. So I left before they vested.

28:45 I had no idea. I was like, I didn't know. I didn't know that no one told me, what are you doing? Wait like four more months. Just didn't know. So I left way before way too early, stuff like that. Do I have to start up? I joined an AI startup. Didn't know what the hell it was. But they were they were European based company, European investors, and they were looking at just a new way to serve customers like the one I was working for. Right. So these big, big information providers. So

29:14 It sounded very sexy. Flew out to like the HQ in Eastern Europe. And I was like, this is exciting. But then I learned very quickly after a few months of being there. I was like, there was only four of us by the way, as well. So I'm going from like proper startup. Yeah. Like sales team of hundreds were in one little room. I got to work from home one day a week. That was like groundbreaking. Um, I got a Mac cause like groundbreaking. There was.

29:44 I think I learned early on like, okay, this doesn't, there's a lot of things not adding up every time we talk about where you are as a business numbers wise, the numbers change. I'm seeing some discrepancies between what the CEO is saying and what the VP of selves are saying. The targets are weird. I don't even know what's going on. And then they had a new CEO come in. And so I just got all of this. It was just polar opposite, but it just got me, again, it just sparked my curiosity.

30:11 Because you think about it, you come from all of this structure and you're thinking, okay, this is just the norm. This is what sales looks like. This is what businesses look like. They're real structured engines. And remember I was anchored before that in these big, huge investment banks, you know, suited and booted for months. So that that's all I knew. And then I got into these new environments. I was like, oh my God, everyone's a mess. This is a mess. What is happening? No one knows anything. Why is there no training? Why does it know this? So, so yeah, that was like the polar opposite for me, but.

30:40 I needed to change and I was happy. I got to experience new tech, but it was a mess. So then I moved on again. Really? Do you see, do you think that you mentioned the word AI and then when I'm ballparking like the rough dates AI back then, uh, and the working from home one day a week back then was it was completely new. So when you say AI, what, what are we talking about with AI? Cause AI today is very different to AI 15 years ago, isn't it? We're talking about.

31:10 the promise of AI, the power, remember, the AI is only as good as the power that's available to make it happen, right? It takes up a lot of computing power. So that was the, it was so expensive then for a little startup to be creating AI solutions. And they were pretty much caching the entire web and being able to teach their, what we used to call as spiders, because that's what we used to say to like prospects. It's like a spider going on the web and crawling it.

31:40 understanding the structure of your website and all the, on all of your databases and then being able to extract that data and give it back to you. So it was like, it was almost like AI, but also like AI agents. If I think about the logic of something, being able to perform a design, a particular outcome, right? Multiple functions, multiple steps in an outcome. But it was like 10% AI, 90% humans, just trying to bash through doing all the coding and all the algorithms and do all these things. So, um, there was, we were selling smoke.

32:09 or selling smoke. Yes, they delivered some, they delivered one or two programs, but there was nothing. It's interesting you say about the 90% or 10% AI, 90% manual, because I worked at a company previously that would do like data matching between companies and then they would, it would automatically match news that it found about that company on the web. And then it would give you a list of all the relevant news, job movings, hiring trends, everything related to that company.

32:39 On the front end, what the customer saw was like, Oh, wow, look at the company. Look, all this news that's matched. But in the back end over in India, you had like a team of 40 who are manually matching stories from the web to companies. And obviously it was being positioned and sold as AI, like it doing it for you. And it's yeah, that smoke and mirrors is something that unless you see it firsthand. I don't, yeah, you, you don't tend to appreciate.

33:09 the difference between real technology and real like AI and actually just, um, snake oil. I think that's probably the best word for it. Yeah. I mean, I've gone from market leading solutions. Literally we experience with dominating the market then to the extent that you'd call some customers and they'd be pissed off. They're like, you, I don't even have a choice, but I have to work with you. And that annoys me. It's like, yeah, you're going to renew or not. Um, but like, uh, but then you go to like this fake product that isn't a thing. And I'm like, how was that even legal?

33:38 So it was just a big learning curve for me, but then I went back into much more stable environment where again, robust training, robust structure, established business in the field, really high performing. I think I hit like 181% of my target in like six months. The CEO is like, yes, we got a good one in this one. But I remember, I've always been very ambitious, very confident, and I remember walking into my interview and I...

34:07 did my interview, got through to the second round. And I remember my manager at the time, just before I left the first interview, he's like, that was one of the best interviews we've ever had. Like, I think you're gonna get through to, like you're killing it. Like, well done. Like come and do the same thing again when we meet the MD. And I remember coming back. And at the end of my interview, I then, I finished it. And then I asked, I always asked, I used to ask questions in interviews that would throw the leadership. I'm just like, they're never gonna be in asked this. Because I used to...

34:35 I used to interview graduates and I knew that a lot of them would, they didn't really, they went, they didn't do well to think on their feet. So I'd always ask these questions that were really thought provoking. And then I got them to present to me how they're going to help me make a hundred K. So they were like, wow, okay. Give me an example of one of those questions. I had a whole presentation. So I literally was like, here's my career journey over the next, I think I said three years. This is my goal to get to a hundred K and these are the reasons why, and this is what I can bring to you.

35:05 can you do for me?" And they were like, oh, okay, uh, well, the first thing we're going to say to you, Hannah, is you are not going to make 100k in the next three years here. But what we can do is you're going to probably earn about this much if you deliver these outcomes. And I was like, sounds fair. Yeah, that'll work. But I think I just feel like they liked my cheekiness. They appreciated just that I was money motivated. And I was really young, but at the time, I just had a good, I had a good,

35:35 Good, good initiative, right? In just how I used to think about things. So, and then I showed up and delivered really quickly on that for them. So yeah, that was a great time. Again, they always knew, cause I gave them that three year path. They always knew once I hit three years, I was going to be thinking about another role if there was nothing there. And honestly, the people that, the people's jobs that I would have been trying to fight for, they're still there. Like they're going into their 25th year at the company.

36:03 I was never going to get their jobs. And I think they like, there was a lot of like, I'm comfortable. I'm, I'm killing it. I'm earning a lot of money. So the senior sales reps just never left. It wasn't really a company where you meant what moved into leadership at the time. They had stable leadership. My old manager is still there. Like they had, they don't leave, but, um, the, the senior reps don't even either. So there was, so that, that was the, that was the role after the stint in the, uh,

36:30 What was the, what was that role then? The one you've just described that you did for roughly sort of three years. What was the title that you went in? Uh, what was the company? Yeah. Typical a, a year old in his various like business development manager or something like that, but it was a, just an AU roles, just quotes carrying role where I was selling out in the field, had to be out every day as much as possible. Just net cold, cold prospecting, just all of the hardcore stuff, right? Um, full cycle sales. So we didn't use to look after accounts, but

36:59 I developed a habit of selling to really big companies. So a lot of the big ones would say, can you, can you just manage us? I'm like, it's not really how it works. So I ended up having like two really big enterprise company accounts and then still being like, I'm just going to be out there closing deals. But I learned really early on, I was a smart worker rather than a hard worker. So after I knew, after I played the game, even in my previous role, right? So my first one I experienced, I realized you just don't need to make.

37:29 hundred calls a day and all that crap. Just don't need to. So I'd made sure I had good conversation so I could tick the box of some of my call rates because they got sent to you twice a day. And how many calls you've made, what you've been doing. And I remember one day the national sales director was like, I need to talk to you. I was like, Oh God. Just like what's going on with your activity. And I just said, I was like, I hit my target. And that's how I succeeded my target. I just don't feel like I need to do just, I don't want to do things for the sake of doing it. I prefer to perform and use that time to do something else. And then she was like,

37:58 I just really respect that. She's just like, who cares about activity? Just keep doing what you're doing. So I learned that leaders just want you to deliver results and they have all of these other things where they're tracking you so they can make sure that you're doing the work. But if you deliver results, you get a lot of freedom. And that's what happened in, that's what kept happening in my roles. They saw that I was delivering. My manager will be like, Hannah, need you to do a bit more. And I'm like, look at my pipeline. And he's like, all right, but you have to make sure that closes. I'm like, will.

38:25 So, you know, I had a higher conversion rate than a team. I had a higher ACV than a team. I would cancel meetings and that would go against my number. Like as my KPIs, I'd cancel them because I'm like, I am not traveling for four hours there and back to this meeting. I don't think it's strong enough. I'm just not going. So I tried to qualify out on a call before I went seeing and I'm like, so, you know, is this something that you're prioritizing now and all this stuff and what's the need and all that crap? And if I could sense that it wasn't good, I'm like, yeah, I get it.

38:53 So until, so I'd want to mature my opportunity. So I was never a box ticker, which is a bit frustrating for some leaders. But when you develop that relationship and they can see that you are performing. It's all right. So they're qualifying out things. Um, and interesting when I know Jack and Zach from, we have a meeting, talk about this a lot of like one of the first things, um, they hunt for the no, they, I think that's what they call it. They like, they, they chase the no because.

39:20 At that point, they don't have to waste any more time. It's just that's the end of the conversation. If it's a fit for you in the future, reach back out. Bam, you've saved yourself 30 minutes on a call, not wasted anyone's time. And then you can, like you said, you can reuse that time more optimally. OK, then. So we're going to, I think, in terms of the next highlight role that we're going to talk about, we're going to fast forward a little bit. I just want to touch on some of the roles that led to that, because the next role we're going to talk about is go to market lead.

39:48 But there's obviously a jump from the role we were just talking about to that go to market lead. And I think it for context, it would be good to understand the types of role you had in between that. We don't need to talk in any great depth about them, but give me a little sort of stepping stone of how you got from AE to go to market lead. Yeah, I joined a series of large companies. Because I am.

40:17 I appreciate the stability I had in that role where I was telling you, my manager, trust me to do what I wanted to. Right. Um, they knew that it'd come to the time where I couldn't move anywhere and I'll just be stuck. So I left, it was great. Like I said, I'm going to meet the CEO next week. We get on really well still for all those years ago. Um, so I then went to do like move into the different tech tech that was kind of growing like my tech and all of that kind of stuff, right? So you've got all like emails, big now, right? So you've got all these email tools and all these automation tools and the CMS tools and stuff. So I was like, let me get into that space.

40:47 tech, knew some people there. So I went into that space for a little while and I joined at a time where I was just in an environment where I was a bit like, I was confused that you can be a large company of a big dominant presence and exists so long with very poor performing teams. I didn't know the questions to ask in interviews because I just got lucky so far.

41:16 Yes, the AI one was a bit weird, but I didn't know the questions to ask regarding what a good or bad company looks like. And I trusted the people that I used to work with to be like, come over here, we're doing great. So I'm like, cool. Only to join and see no sales being made really by anyone. Lots of politics, secret discussions about the company being sold. And I'm like, what have I joined? So I went through that for quite a few years and very, very frustrating time.

41:44 because all that does is it just blocks your progress. So I'm like, and to couple that with, not feeling like I had a choice because I had lots of personal commitments financially supporting other family members, my parents who had serious ill health, so I was supporting them and being like, I don't even have the time to sit back and be like, what shall I do with my life? I'm like, I have to find a job. I got paid bills, right? I got stuff to do. So that, but what that did is it forced me to...

42:13 After, before moving to the Ghost Market lead role was to be like, um, I had a baby, so I had my little boy and was like, okay, I need to really be structured here now. I can't just get into roles and make mistakes like this and not figure out, do the right kind of due diligence about companies. Um, I just need to give myself some more room. So, um, I, I had a house now, so I had a little bit more like assets that I could play around with to give me a bit of breathing space. So I, what happened during the time where the companies were a bit

42:43 So-so, um, is I recognize that it wasn't sales failing. Wasn't just down to sales. There was a lot more that's happening inside the organization that contributes to the success. And I, I just started to get a bit more curious about that. To be honest, I started to ask more questions, speak to product teams, speak to, um, speak to like sales engineering team, but I was going on speak to marketing. And I'm like, Hmm, doesn't really add up, but still not really understanding this whole concept of strategy. So.

43:12 The go to market lead role was like the first role that I stepped into where I had a new headspace, new mindset, started to think about business, really started to think about how all of these, everything comes together from an economic perspective. And, um, and just went in with a new lens. So that role came in like a, like a typical, it's a startup again, right? So it's like a typical AE and then you get in and they start to see your skillset there. It shifts. So now you're doing pricing strategy. Now you're like.

43:42 managing the junior reps and running training and enablement. Now you're building out the sales process. Now you're like tweaking stuff inside CRM and all of a sudden you're like, I'm everywhere and I'm out with a CEO pitching to British airways, helping her with her messaging. So, and positioning and so it just went very different, but I realized, ah, I like this. I really like having more autonomy and also

44:10 people respect my opinion and perspective on things that I just not like get on the phone and have a call and go out and meet someone. I'm like, yeah, that's interesting. Okay. So just before we chat about the, that sort of go to market role specifically, what would be, you touched on some of the questions that you didn't know to ask about how to understand a company's health score strategy aligning with yours. Cause I think nowadays it is far more common.

44:40 of a belief that an interviewer, the interview works both ways. It's not the company seeing if you're the right fit. It's also for you to see if they're the right fit for you. So what questions would you suggest people ask in interviews to help understand if it's the right fit? No, good question. So if I, if I was going back, you know, almost a decade or so I'm, I'm looking at. Not just your revenue, but your revenue makeup, right? So I want to know what's that, what, what, what made up that revenue? I'm going to look more closely at the leadership.

45:09 I'm going to be tracking what the CEO, basically what the C-suite role has been, how long they've been there, where they've come from. And then just trying to see if I can see a pattern in the things that they do. So as an example, you might see a CEO that has short stints at a company. Their job is to sell businesses. They're never going to tell you that in the interview, by the way, we've got a new leadership and they're going to sell soon. You never going to get told that. And oftentimes your VP or sales leader is not even aware of those conversations, particularly in a publicly traded company.

45:37 So I'm going to be tracking the revenue makeup and understanding that I will be asking much more about the plans specifically around your go-to-market engine. How do you build pipeline? Where does it come from? Show me the data. Who's closing deals because they, when you're talking about growth and you're learning that, oh, it's all from existing customers. Once you get in there, Oh, this, this isn't, there's not really any uplift in the, uh, in the, in that new, um, also asking more about training the details. Like, Oh, we do, we have challenger training. Oh, it was a one day workshop.

46:08 Oh, I thought it was like something was consistent, right? Um, I'll be asking more, much more questions about just the intricate stuff that contribute to pipeline. I want to know everything a bit like what I do now, right? So I'm going to obsess over that. Um, but at the level, so looking top down, what's happening in leadership, but also looking at, um, how they, how they actually build the engine that's going to drive the business. Because if I asked those questions, I would never have joined two of the companies that I joined. I got a bit better in some of them.

46:35 I asked some questions. There was lots of promises though. But again, it promises a comfort to a fool. So I was the fool in that instance. Um, nothing happened. All of the things where it was like, I asked all some of those questions. Because I knew how to get company reports. So I literally bought the report and had a company report. I bring it to my interview and I'd have it down and I'm like, here's your revenue. Here's a profit. Your revenue has been flat for five years. What are you going to do to increase that? How comes you're hiring so many people right now? And they're like, holy shit. Okay. Uh,

47:04 Well, what we've got to do, what we plan to do, and then within three months, you see no change. And I think because of how, and this is what we have to change, right? We really have to change this whole, you have a short tenure, I'm not going to hire you. And we have to understand that not everybody has the know-how, particularly as a mid-level rep or even other, even if you're an experienced rep, to navigate every company from the outside.

47:33 Yes, you can do that. Everyone's like, go on outreach and you know, message people on LinkedIn and speak to a rep that reps only going to tell you so much and that reps is only allowed to tell you so much. So there's companies that I would have left within eight weeks. I would have left within three weeks, but it just looks bad. So you don't do it. So you stay there until you're torn down and then you're stressed out or you're burned out and you're like, this is nonsense. And you're like, I should have, I knew to leave, but I couldn't because it's so hard to get a job once you leave early.

47:59 And I went through situations midway through my career where you'd have leaders who had never been in an environment of underperformers. So they just don't get it. They're like, sounds like you're making excuses here. I just don't feel like any team would have, you know, missed free quarters in revenue and no one be fired. I'm like, well, that's what happened. I don't know what you, I don't want me to say. Do you want me to lie? And I'm almost too honest with stuff as well. I'd be so honest.

48:27 They'll be like, what happened last quarter? I'm like, I didn't make a sale, but no one else did. And they're like, oh, okay. So I'm like, did the recruitment consultant not tell you this? I would have told you before this interview, right? So, but we have to change that. As sales leaders, it's now my responsibility to ask the questions. If someone's profile looks good, if I've had those initial screening calls, and I'm like, there's something in this kid, not always a kid, sorry, but I still, I'm much older now, right? But I'm like, I see a 20 something year old, and I'm like, you know what?

48:55 I'm going to ask them questions. I want to understand why that where the gaps have come from. And I'm going to respect them and tell them, please be honest. I don't want you to fall out. This is an interview where you've got to lie. Tell me what happened. And it's almost always I joined and the company lied. I joined, I realized there was no training or this. They said, I'm looking after this territory, but I ended up looking off another territory. I was at dinner yesterday. Someone said they were, you know, they were hired to look after the UK. Within three weeks, a new leader came on and said, now you're looking after the middle East. She's like, I can't go to middle East.

49:25 I can't travel to the Middle East. That's not my, my, my, that's not what I signed up for. So these things happen because of poor strategy and poor execution. Hence why I'm now obsessed with solving those issues. So, um, so yeah, I, I, I'd want people to ask all of the right questions, but we also have to grant some grace to some reps because they may be high performing reps, but not have that kind of business acumen to think about those questions during their interviews. So let's just learn if we like their profile, let's learn about them.

49:53 given the opportunity to be great. Cause I, I've, I lost out on a lot of opportunities. I think just because of that people would be like, Oh, there's too many gaps to apps jumping around. I'm like, I didn't jump her out. I joined startups. That's what happens. They, they make products. You think there's going to be a good, uh, you know, a good opportunity to fly. And then they don't, they change direction. I don't know what you want me to do here. It's interesting. Cause I, I, maybe it's because I've worked in startups. So I understand, um, the, I don't know, the

50:21 I don't want to say the lifestyle, but I understand the way it works in the startup world in terms of the high failure rate, but if you win, you win big. But it's interesting because anyone who I've ever worked with who's experienced startup, I would say is operating at a higher level in future jobs than someone who hasn't been in the startup world. Like a million percent. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's general resilience. I don't know if it's because you're in that.

50:51 boiler room of just intense pressure and stress that you come out stronger. Um, but it's interesting that they looked at stints in startup and a little bit of jumping around or volatility as a negative rather than, okay, well, probably got good resilience and she knows what she wants and she's, you know, fight, trying to find and fight for something that is the right fit, which is admirable. So it's interesting. Um, like the view of it. I always said I make myself unemployable. So I had to employ myself.

51:21 So it's a good slogan. It is, I'm unemployable. I should put that in my headline. I think that attracts more, more inbound leads. Some of the, some of the, we've Tom again, who I spoke to previously. He basically said he always knew he was going to set up a company because he realized he was a terrible employee. And I think a lot of founders or solopreneurs, whatever you want to call them, seem to say the same thing of they just for some reason they couldn't fit in, in a...

51:50 hierarchy or too much structure or whatever. Um, so I'm like, when I was, when I got to mid-level career, I realized I now have shown myself to be a high performer. So I don't really care what people say, to be honest. Um, I experienced managers where I'm like, really? Yeah. I was more of an entrepreneur. So managers have to worry about me. I'm like, I'm just going to go out there and get it. I do things before they ask. I'd be following up leads before they sent them. I was out at events before they even mentioned it to me.

52:20 That's me. So if in environments where you don't have a manager who's kind of tripping over their ego all day and they, they will look at me and be like, I remember one of my managers was like, I just have to get you, I just want to put you in front of people. He's like, Oh my gosh, I just want you in front of people. He's like, you're so good. Just if I just get, I need to get you an SDR to just put you in front of people so he can like, you're the machine. And I was like, thank you. So like when I have managers like that, it's like, I'm getting out of your way. Do just do what you did. Right. You closed.

52:47 this big enterprise company in like four weeks, holy crap, go do that again. So I'm like, cool. But then you've got environments where it's like, Hmm, you know, well, over here, we don't know. We follow these and we do this is to do that. I'm like, dude, I want me to make money or not. Like let me do my stuff and army and enable me. So yeah, I was, I I'm like, I have the best relationships with, I'd say nine out of 10 of my managers, the best relationships, never any issues, unless there was like things I can't mention because of legal reasons now, but

53:16 in general, that was never an issue. But it's just the tenure, the tenure became the thing where it was now an issue. But it's not an issue now. Now I'll get big, some of the big companies in the world message me like, you know, you want to, you still doing this consulting thing, or you want to take up a role. And I'm like, yeah, well, you would never consider me seven years ago, ever. Okay. So, um, we've, okay. So now, now he understands the, um, I don't want to label it is, is job popping, but, um, the short, the

53:44 multiple short 10 years in startups and SAS. And we all know why that happens. Why did you take, why were you interested? Why did you take that go to market lead role then? Well, it was a startup, but they were just some interesting tech at that time. Again, I can't be out of work for long. So I took that role. It fit, there was a few going up. And I liked the fact that

54:12 they were looking at me as someone who's got all of this structure and process, process experience to bring to their startup. Maybe around a few years, but performing well, like crossed a million mark. And we're going to, you know, go into doing quite a few more, but again, didn't get strategy, didn't quite work out. But, um, that was the thing that appealed to me, like freedom, flexibility, go out and just be great. So I was like, yeah, I want to go out and be great. Um, some things I didn't agree with some things I did, but in general, it was a great, a great.

54:42 great time in that role. It was a short one, but it was a really great time in that role. And when you say short, how long were you talking? It was I think less than a year, that one. That one was less than a year. That was like, that was where I got to a point where I said I need to start my consulting firm now rather than later. Because it was just the same cycle of crap. It was, we haven't, we didn't build a strategy. Hence why I do what I do. We just did a forecast.

55:11 for what we want to do and build this year to please our investors. And, oh my God, we're not really hitting that. We should probably just wipe out the team. So they wiped out most of the team and, um, and then continue to do that for a bit. And it was like, Oh, that was weird. So I was just getting sick of it. I'm like, this is, there's too many companies like this. How come so many companies just, they, they just have all these dreams. They don't look at stuff. It was so obvious. There were issues.

55:38 They had the same product for the last three years, no real massive changes. I'm like, guys, this is so obvious. Why are you not making the right changes? Instead it's like, it's over higher sales, under deliver on product. And then because we've done that, we now have to sack all the sales, spend all the money fixing the product. And now it's like, okay, let's try again, round five. So yeah, I was at that point, I remember when the senior leader was like, Hannah, yeah, we've had to basically wipe out three of you.

56:06 It's, you know, so personal, you're great, but we just, we can't afford sales right now. So I was like, okay. Um, and then I know you're upset. I was like, no, you gotta do what you gotta do. I'm not bothered at all. When I was out, I was like, I'm ready to rock and roll. Let's go. I think by the time I left that conversation, I think two and a half minutes later, I had a, an interview for another job. I was like, it's cool. That's, that's, I was like, I've, I just got to the stage where I'm old enough now. I've got a kid. It's not personal with business and businesses make really.

56:35 crappy decisions so often because of strategy, always down to strategy. There's a couple of things I want to touch on there. So I think the silver lining of going through that period is that you identified a gap in the market for some consultancy of like, what the fuck are you doing? Like I picked up all this experience. This is how you should do it. So you had an idea, you kind of knew the next route. And then the second is that just remember it is business.

57:02 So there's, I think some people tend to fall into this overly emotional, sympathetic, empathetic, like connection with a, with a job or, or with people. And at the end of the day, you are there to make money, to live your life. You're not there to, you don't, you don't, you, you work to live, not the other way around. So I think people get too emotionally connected to things, unless it's their own gig, of course, in which case it's completely different.

57:28 Yeah, I've got a slightly different opinion and I don't want to reduce the experiences of a lot of people. As I said, I've been in roles where I've been I've been fully bullied. Like I don't use that term loosely. I'm not I've never adopted a victim mindset. But when someone's telling you like sending emails, like don't talk to her, don't hang around with her, sending customers messages saying don't respond to her emails, doesn't know what she's talking about. It was ridiculous. Right. But also, you know, there's you've got leaders where they have been explicitly racist or explicitly sexist or explicitly aggressive

57:57 you've been harassed. So there's a lot of those experiences, right, in that people have in working environments where they leave and they can barely explain those in their next interview. How do you say, well, it's actually because, yeah, my last manager tried to fill me up at the Christmas party. You can't say it. You're usually legally bound by it. So you're like, it was just a difference in opinion. And I feel like I needed my next challenge. Like, at what point can we just cut the BS and be honest and talk about our lived experiences and get into roles that can fit us properly? Because we don't...

58:26 We're not allowed to do that because we're expected to be like, everyone, if you haven't experienced a negative environment, and I see this so much of sales leaders and revenue leaders, right? And it gets on my tits where it's like, they have not experienced an underperforming environment, like serious politics, like crazy egos. They haven't missed target as a high performer in a previous role. So when someone or a group of individuals come into them with that, they're like,

58:56 So you're just crap or you're defensive or you're hard to work with. Or it's like, no. And I always say to someone, when I meet leaders cause that's what I'd often sell to growth leaders. And we will laugh cause I'm like, I can tell that you've been in an environment that was a whole pile of crap. And they're like, how do you know? I'm like, you can just tell because you're so much more empathetic towards everything. You just know that things do not always go to plan sometimes and that you know that it's more than a sales problem. But most people think it's a sales problem.

59:27 Okay, so you found this feels like a sort of checkpoint in your career of realizing that you were going to move into sort of consultancy and that was the way forward. So talk to us about that entry into consultancy. Like you said, you had booked a interview within like two and a half minutes. What was the next step? Yeah, so and that was just me taking another role. I took on the role. It was the best out of the bunch. I had no emotional connection to it. They were making some money.

59:55 I could see consistent sales. So I asked the right questions. I liked my manager. Um, I liked my manager's manager. I liked the CEO, saw the funding, saw the story completely made sense. I was like, cool, I'll join here. They'll pay my bills. I'll deliver as always not a problem. Um, and then at that time I started to get some inbound inquiries about consulting one-off stuff. Um, and I was, I I'm always the person that checks my LinkedIn inbox. So I did one or two gigs and then.

01:00:25 full transparency, I did it a couple of times before, a few years before and that plant in the seed, I was like, I'm definitely doing consulting. Like this is crazy. I think I made my whole salary in like a week. I was like, well, consulting might start sooner than I thought. And I think after eight weeks, I went to the CEO, I said, this is my official notice, I'm leaving. He's like, why? And I just said, well, this new role, I've got some opportunities of consulting. I've got two clients.

01:00:54 It pays significantly more than you. I wouldn't even have the audacity to ask you for that much more money. And also it's more flexible. I can work from home. And that was a big thing for me. Cause I was traveling for four hours a day and it was costing me about 800 quid a month because I didn't live in London. So I was like, this is just, this is the easiest decision I've ever made. So I was out, no emotional connection. Didn't I, I wasn't like, Oh, Oh my God. And he's just said, you know, I wish you did come and have a conversation with me. But my response was I would not have the audacity to ask you for that much more money. It was just significantly more.

01:01:24 And what was it that you did? So you talked about these consultancy gigs. What did you do in terms of how long did you go in for and what were you there to do? I wouldn't say I was going in. It was more like advisory and more advisory. So people are asking my opinion on go to market positioning, messaging, sales process. Again, I didn't know I knew these things. It just, it was just a thing that I did. I didn't know that.

01:01:52 It was valued as much as it was. Um, I didn't know that I had this really unique perspective on the business information world and insight and research world where to the extent that people would pay me when they're going through MNA due diligence, I just didn't think I knew that much. So I was doing a lot of that. And so it was like, Hey, come work with us for six months. Come help us with our positioning. We're trying to release, you know, launch in, in Europe. I'm like, great, this is fantastic. So, so that really started my journey. And then.

01:02:22 From there, COVID, started making content, everything. It went crazy from there. And hence why we're talking probably. And in those consultancy sort of gigs, was it a case of you had a framework like your own sort of copyright framework that you would apply to, you could just cookie cutter it. It was like, okay, you change a few different things based on the company and the product and stuff, but you were able to apply the same strategic or same strategy, structure, execution.

01:02:51 And that's what you just did for say six months blocks of going in with different companies. No, nothing had no structure at all. Just my brain. So I, I, I always say one of my superpowers is I can just take in a lot of data in my head, synthesize it very quickly and be like, well, that's obvious what you're doing there. And, um, and, and it was funny because these, the two people who I was working with, my, one of my first larger clients, they used to be like, like to put it simply like they sp-

01:03:19 built and sold companies. They were millionaires. I mean, like multiple times over. So this was like another little fun experiment for them, but they'd be like, how do you know these things? Like, how do you know this? Where does you learn this thing? I'm like, I don't know. It's just how my brain works. So I started to lean into that more. And when I started to like advise more startups through COVID, just little bits here and there, no structure, just, hey, I can help you when it comes to sales stuff. Let me just look at your, just let me look at it. No promises. Then it'll be like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.

01:03:48 change that, change that, you need to do that, move that around. And then, um, and then I, uh, once I got into my role at scaled leading, uh, Amir, I was like, there is a S you need structure because it's bigger engagements. It isn't just some advisory thing. It's a big program. That's going to run six to 12 months or sometimes two years. So need a structure. So you were talking to, let's talk about this, uh, scale consultant. So you went in, um, and it was originally going to be another one of these sort of

01:04:16 consultancy arrangements and then you were like, this is way bigger than just the short-sting. It's going to require a full project initiative. Well, I worked for Scaled as a practice lead for two years. So I initially came in as for about, I came in for a few months as a contractor. So I was just working on some of their end clients. They needed a presence in Europe. So I was like, this is a no brainer. So like, just think about, imagine accelerating your sales career.

01:04:45 By like 10 years and two years, that's how I explain it. Right. So there was one point in time where I was a VP of sales for one company. I was the head of, uh, head of business development for another company. And I was like, SDR lead for another company. So, so you, this is all at once. Right. Um, so you've got like free clients delivering these free different roles. But again, I was very good at that kind of compartmentalizing needs to be here, needs to be here, delivering that outcome, manage this team, do that training here, run that thing, travel to New York. Do.

01:05:14 So I was doing all of that. And then they were like, why don't you just come and work for us rather than being a contractor. And that was like, I, that was a great decision. One of the best decisions again, I've made in the last five years was working there. So that kind of sounds like, um, I'm thinking the word for like fractional. So it sounded like you were like a fractional, whatever you needed to be, whatever they needed you to be. You were a fractional version of that. Sales chameleon is what I was. Sales chameleon. I love that. Then I turned into a go to market chameleon. Yeah. So I did that. And then I turned into the practice lead. So what that

01:05:43 acquired is me. What is a practice lead? So a practice lead in like a consulting environment is pretty much like a CRO. So you have lead well, it's weird because you're managing sales leaders effectively. So I had four senior consultants reporting into me or five who were like my permanent team. And then I had a team of like, probably 12 other people that would support those consultants and we deliver outcomes around go to market for clients. So like really big clients that were like multiple

01:06:13 you know, thousands in the cells or go to market or to people that may have had like a team of 10 or B2B or tech, um, Texas and services. So in that regard, it was, yeah, just everything building the plan for that business, like my own business unit to make sure that we can grow, we have the resources, doing all the operations around that resource management, planning, financials, budgeting, and then working for these other customers who are our end users and being like that, that client needs a leadership.

01:06:42 enablement program that client needs us to come in as a fractional CRO for six months to set them up. Right. So let me help them build that strategy and get a consultant to go execute. This one just needs training. So now we're going to have like live training sessions every week. I'll take some of those you do that you do the paperwork and the enablement playbooks. So it was like thousands of pages of playbook creation, lots and lots of experience working with various different companies all at the same time. So then you get to like pick.

01:07:09 You get to see what's happening in one environment and the other environment from like an outbound thing that doesn't work. You see how outreach works there and sales off works there and hub spots working there and Salesforce is implemented there and you, you get all of this insight all at once, all the time, and you're just synthesizing to try and improve, like how do we iterate and improve that go to market team? How do we iterate and improve that go to market team? So I loved it. That was just like, as I said, go to market chameleon on steroids.

01:07:33 And it sounds like it was an incubator for like you said for learning and progression in two years was it you said it was? Yeah. And what would be like the high you jotted down that it forced you to level up and that's something that I relate I related to because I think I've referenced it in the past but Jimmy Carr the comedian he said something on one of his podcasts he did with Chris Williamson and he said like if he he if he doesn't feel like an imposter once every 18 months he's doing something wrong.

01:08:02 So it kind of reminded me of that of like, if you're, I can't be in a job. Um, if I don't feel as if I'm not quite up to it, like weirdly, I have to feel like it's 10% average so that every day I'm like, I'm chasing that, that future state. So when you say about force you to level up, was it just, uh, the bar was, the bar was there and you were like, right, I'm going to do whatever I've got to do to get to that.

01:08:31 You know what it is? I'm very confident in my own abilities and what I can do and what I'm willing to do. So I know what I can, what I'm capable of. But you have to understand when you look on paper, I will not meet the typical require the typical story or trajectory of a lot of leaders. So when I'm stepping into environment and it's like, Hey Hannah, you're going to lead this whole leadership development program for leaders who have double the experience, they've probably earned a gazillion times more than you.

01:08:57 because they're also in the States where they get paid, you know, the reasonable amount of money compared to us over here. Um, and, and it's also for a company that's earning over billions. Yeah, go, go be great. Go fix that. And it's like, yeah, no problem. Let's go. Right. But my, my job, and this is what I say to people now, right. Is in those environments, you have to very, very quickly establish credibility. Right. You have to find a way to articulate your story. So you, you are credible and then you're going to work to build trust.

01:09:24 And now they're going to listen to you, but before then they're not. So in all of those environments where I'm working with these companies, I'm forced to make sure that I know how I can quickly bring value and I've got to get past the ego and all that other crap first before I can do that. So I need to learn much more about, you know, creating, creating these safe environments, building trust, showing my competence, showing my capability, showing my results so that people are like, okay, happy to listen to her. So I always say that I, I operate.

01:09:53 The way that I go about doing my work is a bit like how my dad used to operate when he came to the UK 43 years ago, which was he came here, couldn't really speak great English. I mean, he can't really speak great English now, to be honest. But he would basically go and be like, let me do something for you. Let me go do the work so you can see that I like what I'm capable of, that I'm going to work and learn. I do. And I've always been like that. I'm just like, let me go do things. How I operate today, you know, let me let me run an audit. Let me show you exactly what's happening.

01:10:23 learn my perspective. And then after that, we can talk. Otherwise, if you don't understand my way of thinking and don't agree with it, it's impossible to sell to you. So yeah, that's it. It forced me to level up because I had an incredible leader, CEO, who was like, you can do it. Go for it. Just go do this. And he'd be like, I can't. He'd be like, oh yeah, I remember we were on a call and we made a joke, right? One of our biggest customers at the time. And he said, you know, just introducing Hannah, she's going to be leading the project, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's just like, we've got all the stakeholders.

01:10:52 all the SVPs with this multi-billion dollar company. And he was like, but Hannah will step in if my computer dies, ha ha ha. Boom, computer dies. Now it's just me with like 13 SVPs. And I'm like, all right, well, so his computer's dead. Right, so this is what's happening. And I'm okay with that. Like that's, I don't even get nervous. I'm ready. I'm ready to roll all the time. So yeah, so that forced me to establish credibility really quickly because they're like, okay, she knows that stuff, I get it. But.

01:11:21 Yeah, I had I loved that role. It taught me a ton and kind of prepared me to set out on my own and do do do the whole consulting thing in my way, the Hannaway. And that was what led you to pursue your own company. But what was the if things were going so well and you were enjoying it and it forced you to level up, was it that it gave you the confidence you needed in order to step out on your own? Or was it like, why was that the right moment for you to go it alone sort of thing?

01:11:51 It gave me the confidence, I'd say. I think it gave me a, like, I knew what I could do. Then I proved what I could do. And I was just like, I have, I had all of these and I used to waste it with my CEO. He's like, what do you want to do? Like, you can do anything you want here, which I loved. I was like, you know what? I think I have to do this on my own. And it becomes, you know, a, it becomes a future-proofing thing where I want to build my frameworks, my proprietary things that I own, right? I want to own the IP of what I'm doing.

01:12:19 And as we perform, we iterate on that that's trademarks and you can't take it. I don't owe it to no one. It's it's ours and it provides value and builds value inside the, the, the limited company. So that's kind of me. I was thinking way ahead. Like, what does the next five years look like if I do all of this here, this is going to be great. Like I knew what I was building and what I was thinking through. And I just thought I need to own this so that, yeah, if I, if I go launch it and it doesn't really work, then I own it. I can just make some tweaks, but I don't want to do that under the, the kind of

01:12:47 uh, guys have another company. Just didn't make sense. Yeah. I only ask because I think there's going to be a lot of people, um, out there who are at the point of, of considering, I want to do it on my own, but I don't know if I'm ready, so it's like understanding where that point is on the, on the timeline of like, that is the point you're ready. Um, so just before we move on to like the roundup stuff, just tell us what, um, your own company is, cause we're, we're talking about your own company and going at alone, what exactly is it? What do you do?

01:13:17 Yeah. So I started revenue funnel because I recognized that, um, buyers were becoming more disconnected from sellers. They didn't want to engage with them. Technology was meaning that they don't really have to. And it was a way in which, um, which people can make decisions without reps. And also, um, I found through all of the work I was doing that I never, ever, I almost never heard the word go to market strategy. And I was always working with go to market teams. It was always, can you help build a sequence? Can you help do this? I'm like, where's the strategy behind this? Why are we doing this?

01:13:44 Um, so revenue funnel helps B2B scale up. So those who are typically doing more than 10 million in that, um, up to whatever, right, whatever the revenue is, uh, create and execute plans that are focused on driving more pipeline. So everything we do is geared towards helping a company optimize how they operate in relation to how their prospective buyers buy. We're looking at what you're doing. How do they act? What are the decisions they need to make? And we're basically tailoring your go-to-market around that.

01:14:12 because otherwise it's just theory and air and philosophies. We want to make sure that we very clearly can articulate where revenue is inside your go-to-market engine that you're often not seeing because you're just not focused on the fundamentals and you're often too close to it to be impartial. So that's what we're doing. And I guess 2025 is like our first year of being grownups as in like, we're doing this probably with a clear plan. 2024 was still me doing like fractional bits and trying to figure out what I wanted it to look like. And

01:14:41 testing and iterating on frameworks that I've been developing. But, um, now it's like, cool, let's go. So yeah, excited. Yeah. Exciting times. Okay. Right. We'll do the, we'll do the roundup. It's, um, last sort of 10 minutes. So what would be your top three tips for anyone, um, looking to progress in their career and, you know, take the next step? I've always said, like, if you, if you are forward thinking,

01:15:07 And the thing is, not a lot of people need to progress. They want to just kind of like be where they are. And that's okay, I think, just to put that aside. But most of us want to progress and go smash it. So you need to act like you're in the next role and think about the things that are going to be required, right? So you have to be very intentional because what happens in a role, particularly if you are become a big personality or people start to respect you internally, as you start to get pulled in all these directions, they want you to do all these things. You need to understand, is that going to line up with my next role?

01:15:35 Simple as that, because if you do not deliver on the things that you are paid to do, you will be gone. So it's really, really critical that even if you are loved and adored and all this stuff, it's business. And you need to drive an outcome. So make sure you're doing that. So I'd always say, make sure you prioritize driving your outcomes that you're paid for over and above everything. And think about the next role that you're trying to get to. So you can, along that journey of delivering outcomes, you can get those little nuggets of experience so that when it comes to the opportunity, you're like, I'm ready. Let's go. There's no.

01:16:04 I am the best candidate for this role, whether internally or externally. I'd always say, um, try to move up in a company. You can move sideways out of a company and earn more money. It's very hard to go from like rep to leader as an example across companies. So if someone's, if you are that frustrated senior rep and you're like, man, I just want to be a leader, you bet. My best advice would be stick it out. As long as it's not an environment that is affecting your mental health or your health in general.

01:16:33 Stick it out until you can find that leadership position. Try carve one out if you can as well. That's possible from a team lead. But if you want to, yeah, that's one thing. And I'd say if you are like a sales lead, team lead, trying to get into like VP of sales, CRO role, then really start to have more conversations with finance. Just speak to finance, go do some marketing courses as well. I always respected marketing, but did not appreciate it.

01:17:02 to the level that I do now that I own my own company. Marketing makes sales a breeze and easy. And people say, oh, forget inbound, outbound's the way. Yes, but imagine having an organization where you are flooded like open AI with inbound leads because you have such a strong engine and a strong product. That's kind of the dream. I mean, I'm biased, but I completely agree about the fact that marketing are great and people should love marketing more. So yeah, but it's interesting there. We've had quite a few people say the same thing

01:17:31 operate with your future role in mind. So like, there's a lot of people, again, I don't know if it's because it's just slightly woke trend of like kids expecting promotions just because they've been somewhere a year. But it's like, if you want, if you want a role, you have to be willing to kind of do parts of that role, little like I think you call them nuggets of the of that role, or at least take on responsibilities that sit outside of your job description.

01:18:00 to show willing and to show that you can do it. And I think that's a great piece of advice that we've had a few times. So that was interesting to have another person focus on that as well. I got promoted at Scaled within maybe six and a half or seven weeks. And it was because I took on an entrepreneur role, right? My CEO said, hey, like what things do you think we can improve in our business? I was like, I ain't pulling for this trick. He's like, no, be honest with me. I don't wanna hear nothing good. So I was like, okay, cool. I was like, I think you can do it. He's like, I think.

01:18:28 I said, I think we can improve these free things. So he's like, well, go fix it. I was like, really? And he just saw my initiative. Was it perfect? No, it wasn't perfect, but he saw my initiative. He saw me making progress, saw me bringing in the right people, how I navigated, how I worked, how I communicated, and was like, yeah, this is the kind of leader I want in my org. So you need to go fix stuff. I say this on stage when people ask me about, how do you transition to consulting? I'm like, you don't, go fix your own company first.

01:18:55 They're going to take the leap, right? You need to get stable, get your, you get your knowledge up and then you can consult, but go fix stuff in your own business. The right business will welcome that and then see how that contributes to your future. If you have fixed stuff, you are now going to be known as someone who delivers results. Yeah. There's, there's far too many people that highlight problems, but don't fix them. So if you're a, if you're a problem fixer, that's a, that's a great skill to have. Okay. So, um, you mentioned the word regret once or twice. Um, any career regrets to date?

01:19:25 Yeah, I'd say not like pulling up my big girl pants when I left my first like real good sales role, the one where I left and lost all my stocks. And I should have just went back and be like, cool, they've they literally the senior director who didn't give me promotion first learned about me as I left is something happened. I don't know if she learned about it was like, Oh my god, Hannah, like, I've been speaking to people and they've got such strong opinions of you. They think you're great. And you've been doing great work. Would you consider coming back for a new role?

01:19:55 that, you know, the promotion that you wanted is available. And I was like, I don't think so. It was just pride, right? When I look back, I'm like, I should have stuck there. Um, and then I say, I think that's like, that was one of the main ones. And then it would have been, I wouldn't say joining some of those companies where it went wrong, went wrong because those environments allowed me to be able to have the knowledge for what I do now. I would not have known how important go to market was. I would have just thought, sell, sell, sell, get on the phone, send emails, cause it works. I wouldn't.

01:20:25 I understand all of the infrastructure and how it ticks and tocks to help support that whole motion between trying to get your products and services to customers to drive value for them where they realize that value and their business works better. I just wouldn't have known that. I wouldn't have known the logic behind that. So, um, that's just a regret. It's just the stock stuff and that role, but everything else I'm like, yeah, bring it on. Yeah. So it's interesting. There's, um, Matthew McGonaghy book called green lights. Um, he talks about sitting in the mud and getting comfortable sitting in the mud.

01:20:54 And what he means by that is you've got to get comfortable in the uncomfortable times. Like you're not going to go through 15, 20 years of your career, it being smooth sailing and like clear progression and clear, like 20% increases every time. And it's, there will be some lucky people out there that have that. But looking back, you don't realize it until you look back that you go through those, uh, various startups that failed or startups had no structure. But like you said, you came out of it with a very, very clear understanding of exactly what doesn't work.

01:21:24 So you could then apply that into, into future things and you wouldn't have had that. So unless you sat in the mud, you wouldn't appreciate the things. Remember it wasn't just startups. These are like big publicly traded companies that also did not have any structure or anything in particular divisions. But, um, I just, I just picked out a lot of stuff. I understand the, the real impact that politics can have on teams like internal politics. And I was like, wow, this is, this is pretty bad. So yeah.

01:21:53 prepared me for what I do today. And that's why I can step into any environment and be thrown in a deep end and be able to figure it out very, very quickly. Okay. Last two questions, one question. Uh, what's the next step for you? So you spoke about having those three years and five year plan. Like what's the next, um, step and then where, like, do you, do you have an angle, do you, do you, I know there could be this indefinite thing of just progressing or doing something until the point at which you're like, right. Um, I'm tired now. Or do you have this?

01:22:22 title in mind, this like thing. I've always had the aim of, um, of trying to make business easier. And my, the vehicle that I do that for is now through consulting. So I want people, people get into sales, people start businesses because they see the dream of what the outcome can be. And I'm just, I'm trying to make that more of a reality for reps and also for, for, uh, for, for, for leaders. CEOs, yes, they're already there. But I mean, like the leaders, when we're talking about bigger companies, cause they don't get into fail.

01:22:51 And often a lot of them have failed because they just don't know how to navigate, go to market. But the real big, big goal is I need to, I wanna prove that this can be done so that other people who are in inner city Hackney, who the government's kind of neglected and like, oh wow, a young kid from an area that was very under, under supported can actually make it and provide value and be recognized as someone who made a big impact in their own.

01:23:17 Profession so that's my goal. I want to make it make other people realize that it's possible Those that look and feel like me. So yeah Amazing well Thank you for joining me Anyone who's listened and wants to go and find out more the relevant links will be in the description below if you want to go And connect with Hannah follow Hannah check out her content that she touched on as well, but thank you for listening watching Whatever you're doing. This is actually episode 10 in the season. So this will be the end of the season end of season one We hope you've enjoyed the whole season. We'll be back for season two in

01:23:47 I don't want to give a date, so I'll just say in a few months time. But thank you for watching and listening and we will catch you in another episode. Thanks Jamie.