00:03 Hello and welcome to another episode of the revenue career ladder podcast, where we dive deep into the career journeys of revenue focused professionals to give you real insights, actionable tips, and maybe even a little reassurance that the journey is yours to define. In this episode, I'm joined by Ben Smith and we're going to be chatting about his journey from pot washer to marketing director. Um, and it's, look, it is a slightly click bait way of doing it, but we all that's, that's very, very intentional from a marketing point of view. Ben, I understand this.

00:31 It sounds a lot better when we talk about pot washing to marketing director rather than from BDR to marketing director or whatever. So first ever job to current job is the way we do things. So how are you, Ben? Doing very well. Thank you. Yes. How are you, Jamie? I think you might be the first person that's asked me that actually. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. It's, um, people will be listening to this in a couple of months time, but we're mid January now. So I was just chatting with Ben that.

00:59 Um, they've got, uh, they're in their last month of the year. We've just done our last month in December. So January's a bit of that weird, like first couple of weeks for us is kind of half the business still on holiday. Then people are coming back and it's like, Oh my God, we've had four days off. What do we do with our lives? Like what is our job? Um, so I think this week is felt like the first proper. Explore week with expectations. Um, but no, it's good. It's good. It's, uh, it's not raining. You know, that's very British way of.

01:28 measuring your day. It's not raining, which is a good thing. So I'm looking forward to this chat. Um, it's the first, maybe second marketing, um, chat we've had. So marketing career journey. And we obviously want this series to be a mixture of revenue, um, functions, not just sales. So this would be a, this would be a good one. So if you're in marketing, this is definitely for you and a very, very interesting journey. I've obviously read through the notes.

01:56 And I like the conversations that you just wouldn't guess the career background. Some are very, very logical and ladder-esque and some are wild in it's like, Oh my God, I would never have guessed that was your background. And I think this is one of those conversations. So I'm looking forward to it. But before we jump into the, that particular part of your career journey, talk to me about your first ever job, pot washing.

02:27 My first ever job pot washing, gosh, I mean, it was a long time ago. I was 14 when I, when I put down that job, but it was at my uncle's cafe. The owner's cafe, very entrepreneurial family with running their own businesses. My dad has his own business. Uh, my uncle has his own business and it was a cafe. So I needed to earn some money to fund my ice skating, which we'll get into that a little bit later, but he allowed me to come work on the weekends.

02:55 wash up the dishes. I was also going out on the street and giving away flyers and trying to entice people to come into the cafe. I think that's probably where I started to get a bug for being entrepreneurial and my first glimpse at really running a business and what that looked like and how that might form some of my journey a little bit later. But yes, it did start off with not being so glamorous and washing dishes, but got some good experience with talking to customers.

03:24 Do you know what? Well, first question, what does your dad do then? What was your dad's business? So my dad is a scaffolder. He's always worked in the construction space. I definitely wasn't going to be going and putting up scaffolding on my weekends. Hey, there's good money. I think there's good money in scaffolding. It's expensive scaffolding. Yes, yeah, I mean, it can be expensive scaffolding. I think it takes a...

03:50 type of person to go into that industry. And here in the freezing cold is not something which which I was going to be doing. But inside ice skating the freezing cold. That was definitely something which okay. So in indoor cold is good. Outdoor cold is not good. Right. Okay. And then, you know, I always find it funny. Like we your I assume you're roughly a similar age to me. So early 30s give or take and I think it's very rare now that you hear about.

04:18 one 14 year old working, it just doesn't happen anymore. But back when we were 14, it was the norm to have a job at doing a paper round at 12 or something like that. And then in terms of washing pots, it feels like jobs like that are becoming less and less common for 16 year olds. Like 16 year olds nowadays just have this expectation that they're gonna go and work in urban outfitters and that's their first job. Whereas back in our day, I hate saying that phrase, but back in our day it was...

04:47 proper, proper jobs, you know, pot washing, it was paper rounds and stuff like that. So it's it's the first pot washing conversation I've had, but not the first in restaurants. A lot of people our age seem to have started in local fast food joints or restaurants in the kitchens or waiting tables or something. So, yeah, interesting. And then you you that was at 14. So what was your first legal job? Let's say.

05:16 First legal job, gosh, what was that? That was probably, I think working at Topman as a sales associate or, you know, I prefer to be in the back. Retail assistant or something, yeah. Retail assistant. Yeah, I definitely prefer being in the back room rather than front of house. I did some Christmas tenting there and checking in all the items and making sure that they were stopped properly.

05:45 That was my first legal job. Actually something which I didn't put in the talking points, which is probably worth touching on, is more around like the volunteering in those early years. So I was very heavily involved with Youth Parliament when I was younger and in school. So that gave me some good experience with starting to think about forming a viewpoint really, and then campaigning for that viewpoint. So great.

06:15 great opportunity to, from an early age of working on what you believe in. And I remember the whole process of getting into youth parliament was quite interesting because you had to go around to different schools and meet with other young people and campaign about your ideas and what you believed in, what you cared about, and get them as actively engaged in it as you were. And there was a literal whole polling session that would happen across the county.

06:45 kids around the schools would vote for who they wanted to be their representative of their local county. So what, can you just give me a, what is Youth Parliament? As in, so by the sounds of it, each county had a representative that would, what would they do? Yeah, so before that I was the chairperson for Dorset, so part of the Dorset Youth Council, I was campaigning for, you know, what young people believed they needed to...

07:14 to help them and support them. And I would go and work with the local council and work within schools to really promote that on their behalf. And then that then led me into Youth Parliament, which was really similar to parliament, but for young people. Obviously, you don't get the right to vote until you're a little bit older. But this was a great opportunity that was put on for young people to have their voice. And, you know, I took manifestos to

07:44 Downing Street to advocate for cheaper transport for young people. I was taken out to Brussels to meet with members of the European Parliament and talk about real issues that were affecting young people within Youth Parliament and within our county. And that was great opportunity for a 14 year old to be doing that. I was the first person to speak at the Dispatch Box that wasn't an elected member of Parliament because we actually had the opportunity to go into Parliament and have a debate.

08:14 around the key issues that affect young people. And I always remember that being such an impactful part in my journey and gave me so many great opportunities from that, whether that was PR training and, you know, learning how to talk to the press and media, to campaigning and, yeah, some great, great opportunities there. Yeah, I mean, it certainly sounds like there'd be a lot of skills, a lot of opportunities that would

08:43 Maybe not, you wouldn't have thought of it early on in your career or at the time, but looking back now that actually probably a lot of the things that you the opportunities and the skills that you had to hone have been useful later. Like you said, the campaigning messaging something so that it resonates with your audience and things like that. Okay, very, very interesting. Okay. So pot washing youth parliament Nando's talk to me about Nando's this is this we're recording.

09:10 leading up to lunch. So this is going to make me very, very hungry, but talk to me about Nando's. Nando's, yeah. So I mean, before Nando's, I was working at the ice rink, went from receptionist to manager position at the ice rink at the age of 18. That then led me on to looking for another role. And 18 years old, I was like, what can I do? So assistant manager role

09:40 months experience in management position but I'm going to give it a go. So managed to get through to the interview process, went up to London, it was a big deal for me going up to London, went to Putney which is where their head office was and I remember in this interview there was it was an in-person interview, all-day interview, I think there was between 10 and 15 people going for two jobs I believe. So very competitive you know they've got years of experience in

10:09 hospitality and management. I've always had a passion for it and the thought that's where I was going to go in my career. Um, but Nando's was just a great, great company. I'd never eaten at Nando's before I went for this interview. Obviously didn't let them know. Part of the interview process was that, uh, you would go for lunch and you would meet some of the key people in the head office. And I ordered a hot Nando's, which not ideal. I was sat there streaming, crying. Um, it was so spicy. But.

10:38 I think I was definitely stood out and was remembered, which I think was important. I don't know why, but got back to the office to continue the interview process. And I was feeling quite full and I was like, you know, do you have a dance that you do to kind of help your food go down? And I had these execs honestly, like pecking at the floor, pretending they were chickens. And it was absolutely bonkers looking back. But yeah, I left and then got a call and they said that they would like to offer me.

11:08 job as a system manager at a Nando's restaurant at 18 years old. And I was, it was kind of a surreal, surreal thing that just happened really. It's mad that they got people to London. I'm assuming they pay for it as well. So they bring you to London, you go out for lunch and you, that's just the hiring process. That's, that's wild. Also never had a Nando's before, before going to this. So

11:33 The good thing is when you were pleasantly surprised at the flavor, it would have been genuine pleasant surprise during the, it wouldn't have been fake like that is the best Nando's ever had. It was literally the best Nando's you ever had. Yeah. I mean, I was crying though, like I just, I just love it so much. You know, the heat, I mean, this is a lagging for the job at its best, I think. But I think it's also really important. Like that's helped me realize how much you just have to stand out and

12:03 I was clearly showing some sort of passion, I think. Yeah, I was also thinking when you were telling me the story of the youth parliament and this of going for things that you're not necessarily ready for, but because you like the stretch mentality of, OK, it's a little bit out of my reach, but I think I'll be good at it. Like that that's an interesting even at that young age. You were you obviously had that mentality of why not like?

12:27 it a go. I trust in my ability to be able to do that job. I might not be qualified, but I'll give it a go anywhere. And I think I noticed that sort of thread throughout your career. So we'll obviously discuss it further, but okay. So pot washing, youth parliament, Nando's now very big. You've touched on it very, very well. You've teased it initially, but we're going to do a little bit of a, um, well, a very big sidestep and then we're going to talk about

12:54 your first highlight role, which I'll let you introduce, but this is the bit where I'm like, I'm interested in this. I want to learn about this. This is wild. It's one of those backgrounds when you meet someone and you're chatting with them, you're like, Oh, what do you do? And if they were to say this, you'd be like, what? That's an actual, that's a job. Tell me about it. That sounds amazing. So first highlight role that you want to talk about.

13:24 is when I started training to be an ice skater, started ice skating, I would have to travel before school. So at like four in the morning would be on the ice in Bays and Stoke, which is an hour away from where I lived. My lovely grandparents who gave up a lot of their time to driving me up the motorway at three in the morning to get me to my ice skating lessons and then get me back to school on time. So I always knew that that was.

13:51 what I wanted to do in my passion. I started a little bit later than everyone else. I didn't know if it was going to be a reality of something I could do. Didn't go to university, moved to Basin State to train and really put a lot of effort and energy into my ice skating in my later years. I auditioned for Disney on Ice twice, as well as some other ice skating shows and didn't get accepted. But on my second round of auditioning for Disney on Ice, that's when they said that they would like to.

14:20 to take me on and have me fly out for the tour. I was meant to go to Israel for my first tour, but that then got moved and ended up going to America. So I was 19 when I first went. Felt like I was kind of going back a bit in a year because I was able to drink, I was having a good time drinking, but then obviously went to America and wasn't allowed to drink anymore. And yeah, it was just a very, very humbling.

14:49 experience being able to go and tour with Disney on Ice for five years. Tell us, I understand, I know what Disney on Ice is, but talk to us about what is the tour? Is it like a music tour, you go around and you perform the show globally for a separate time and it's the same show in each of the places?

15:15 Yeah, so Disney on Ice is owned by a company called Feld Entertainment. Feld has the, one of the only companies, if not the only company that has the rights to Disney, so you have to follow like strict brand guidelines and the Disney guidelines. And Disney on Ice, they have a touring at any time between I think eight and 10 different ice shows that has a series of Disney stories as part of those shows.

15:42 So during the five years that I was there, I was able to tour 40 different countries. You're changing cities every one to two weeks. There's six-week rehearsal period that you do at the start of any new show or a little bit longer sometimes, maybe three months up to. But definitely between two and three weeks of being in one place and rehearsing for...

16:07 for the show and then you're away from home for anything between 10 and 14 months at a time, if not sometimes longer. And it was, taught you to grow up quite quickly, I think. It was very fast paced, needed a lot of resilience as well. You know, there's huge highs and huge lows of it, constantly wanting to.

16:34 take on new roles and new opportunities with it, but they're tough. It's hard to get those roles and you're competing against people that you're living and working with, which is a weird, weird thing because you're friends, but also you want to advance your career and have more opportunities with those roles. So it's kind of like, I'm thinking, I've seen Lion King on stage. So is it kind of like Lion King?

17:01 tours on stage, you're touring with, like you said, 10 different stories, Disney stories on stage, which is ice for you. Is that comparable? Yeah. I mean, I played the roles that I played was Woody from Toy Story. That was probably one of my favorite roles. And as part of that show, you know, we had Cars on Ice, we had Toy Story, Little Mermaid. There was another one that I did, which had Peter Pan in it, which was...

17:29 always fun and The Lion King was part of that one. Lilo and Stitch was part of that show. So it's all these different Disney stories that everyone knows and loves, but we're performing them on ice. And many times it's in different languages. So having to learn the tracks in all different languages. A European tour is always fun because you're moving from different countries to different country and you're on the bus or on the plane and you're listening to the soundtrack of the new language that you need to learn. And...

17:59 And then we do things like meet and greets and PR opportunities where we're in these different countries or different cities, which is another kind of journey how I got into marketing eventually. But yeah, it was fast paced, tough in many aspects. You're living out of hotels, so you have to be very comfortable being uncomfortable. It's not as always glamorous as it may seem living out of hotels. I mean, we were

18:28 You can't eat out every day and when you're just starting, you're not earning the most money. So lots of times you're cooking with a hot pot on a toilet and, uh, or in your hotel bathroom and, um, some of the things that you do is just quite, quite funny. So what, what was the, your favorite place you visited in the five years? Good question. Favorite place I visited. I think there's two really just because they're so different culturally to.

18:57 what I was ever used to. South Africa, loved South Africa. And then Japan was the other place I really loved. Just because going to those two places, it just felt completely different to anything I'd ever seen before or the culture that I was really used to. I've heard Japan seems to be a lot of people's top place they visited. I forgot a mate who went there recently and he said it was an amazing place. I'd love to go there. Skiing is meant to be very, very good there.

19:26 Okay. So you touched on it there as well. Like there was a during this, that five year period, you kind of got into marketing a little bit more, or there was a side hustle or a different part of the role. What was that? Yeah. So as you've probably seen, I don't like to settle or not keep stretching myself. And as much as I love the ice skating, I did need something else to

19:53 film me and I'm always thinking about, you know, the next next thing, what's what's next. I always had that part lingering over me that I didn't go to university and was always very aware of how that might impact me in the future. Not knowing if I finished or if I want to go back into hospitality or if I wanted to do something different. So two ventures that I kind of went down whilst doing the show and ice skating. Number one was I set up a kind of a cafe for

20:23 crew and the other skaters on the show. And I'd go out into whatever country or city we were in and go to like a Costco or Sam's Club and bulk buy loads of food, drinks. I had two crates which had fridges, ovens, cooking equipment, and I'd be there in my robe and my skates on in between the shows, like cooking up meals for the rest of the cast and selling it back to them. So that was kind of one venture that I took ownership of and that kept me busy and occupied.

20:51 And then the other one was there was a role within the show and on the tours, kind of like a press assistant. So you would be working with the local PR agencies and publications, whether that be TV, print, radio stations, and you would have the opportunity to really own the media side of it. So whether we've got TV crews coming in to film the show, like

21:20 four or five in the morning before we're actually doing the shows and broadcasting that over news programs or through live TV. We'd be running the production of it and making sure that all the Disney guidelines were being followed and you know everything was going smoothly. To training new cast members on PR training and really...

21:47 understanding again the strict guidelines and brand guidelines that you have to follow and how to tell a story well, because journalists love to find out the nitty gritty and a lot of times they would focus the stories they wanted to tell on who in the cast is dating each other or try and find some scandal and that's just not the stories that you want to be sharing. So a lot of the time it was

22:15 approaching it and training people on how to spin those questions and get comfortable being asked those difficult questions but to put a good narrative on it. Would you say that was the first point in your career where you found marketing as a potential future sort of career path, isn't it? It was the first time you were like, quite enjoyed this, maybe there's some legs in it. Yeah, definitely.

22:43 There was a time at Nando's when I was doing that, that I was going out into the community and doing some grassroots activities and drumming up some interests there. So that's probably the first time that I had exposure to some sort of marketing initiative. This definitely solidified that hunger to get into marketing, going down that PR aspect of marketing.

23:08 And then from that, I started to do an online university course and that was in business and marketing. So that developed a little bit further and started to get some more technical training around it, I guess, and an understanding of it. But yeah, that was that combined with the entrepreneurial side of just owning and creating a business and working with people and looking up to people that have businesses, I guess.

23:36 definitely, definitely fueled that. Now this, like we said, it was a five year period, so a long stint. So the next question of what did you learn during this period? So obviously there's going to be a lot that you learn, but what were the key things that you learned during that five year period? Yeah, I think discipline is something that I really learned. I always thought I had good discipline, but in that sort of environment, I think...

24:06 It really taught me a good level of discipline because being a professional athlete is tough anyway. It's tiring on your body, you're working long hours, you're training, you're rehearsing, you're doing the shows. There's also other distractions. You want to go out and have a good time and you want to enjoy the cities that you're in because you're traveling and it's...

24:31 It's an incredible opportunity, but you still have to have a lot of discipline to get the job done at a high standard and not, not let that slip. Um, you know, we had things like weekly weigh-ins, which is a weird concept, you know, to be in every week. And, um, just that, that level of discipline was, was another level. So I think that, that being a professional athlete, discipline was something that really taught me. I think moving to.

25:01 a real team mentality. I've always had that team mentality through leadership, but when you're working with your cast and you're working on a show and you're creating these numbers together, that level of being an individual contributor and having your standout moments, but also working with your team and ensuring that you're creating a great production. I think that taught me a different level of teamwork and how to...

25:28 how to let other people shine, but also create these opportunities for you to shine as well. And I think, yeah, just continuing to like get comfortable, be comfortable being uncomfortable. That was, it was a challenging, challenging time in terms of always on the move and being in these weird, weird situations and places and just being comfortable and...

25:57 always looking to grow is something that job taught me. Yeah. And I think, um, obviously that were, were you roughly, what, 24 ish at the, at the end? So I think I heard you say 19 was when you sort of started. So roughly mid twenties, by the point that you decided, um, that you had had, uh, uh, enough of that lifestyle. And I can imagine that you said 40 different countries, the, the weigh-ins, the training, the discipline that after it takes its toll. Um, so what

26:26 what were the reasons that you decided to not call it quits, but that you decided to think about your next move at 24? Yeah, it's funny. I always had a five year plan going into it, but as you're in it, you think, Oh, maybe this is it. I could do this for forever. You also start thinking, Oh, it's only one injury and then that could end it for me. And what am I going to do next? I think for me,

26:55 I mean, honestly, I probably had a bit of burnout coming out of it and was ready to put some roots down and start thinking about what that future looked like. I'm really glad I did get out when I did, to be honest. You know, no one could have predicted COVID, but my life would have been very different right now because of the impact of COVID. And for a lot of performers out there, sadly, their lives are very different because COVID

27:23 pressure on the industry and changed a lot of things for a lot of people because touring shows weren't touring anymore, travel came to a stop. So I was very lucky that I did finish I think when I did and started to make that next change. But yeah, family is very important for me. I always wanted to be able to support my family more and I knew that I had to make a big, big, big move.

27:52 I've always taken risks and not been scared of taking risks. And this was another, another pivotal moment and risk I needed. And at that point then, um, that you sort of made that decision, what was the, how did you decide where to go? Like the route to take in terms of, um, industry function type of job? Yeah. So I think I was a little bit naive to be honest and, um, didn't really.

28:18 have a plan. I remember I didn't even tell my family and friends that I was going to finish tour because I didn't know myself that it was going to end quite as quickly as it did. I was in Brussels on break work which is when you're in between shows and they ask you to come and do a little bit of extra work and I went out to Brussels and I just got there and I was like this isn't this isn't where I want to be. So I remember having a very difficult conversation with the casting director and saying Reese I was to leave you but I'm going to have to go and sometimes you have to look after yourself.

28:48 first. So I left, got on a train, the Eurostar back to the UK, turned up at my parents' front door and said, hi, I'm home. They were like, what are you doing here? So I was home for two weeks before making the move up to London. And it was an interesting move. I had a friend, still one of my best friends, who at the time was a VP of sales in a software company doing very well for himself.

29:17 kind of looked at his lifestyle and looked at what he'd done in his career and thought, you know, he didn't go to university and I found that very inspiring as well that we had the similar journeys there and what he's made for himself and I thought that's kind of where I would love to go. So he very kindly let me stay with him for a couple of weeks before I found my place, found my place, moved in there and yeah, I thought it would be easy. I thought, you know, I've got this...

29:47 wild background of being restaurant manager, kind of life experience, done a bit of PR. Surely I'll be able to find a BDR job. And it wasn't the case actually. It was very difficult. A lot of companies, I applied to 300 companies, got rejected from all of them. I think I only had to face interviews. And a lot of the feedback was that I didn't have a degree. And I'm really glad that the industry has changed.

30:17 And I think the hiring criteria for BDR has now changed in the industry and what people look for in BDR leaders, what they look for has really developed from the, I don't know how many years ago that was now, six, seven years ago to when I started looking. But yeah, I realized that wasn't gonna happen. So knew that I needed to get some more experience, that was the feedback. So I managed to go and work at a PR agency as an intern for free.

30:47 I wasn't getting paid for that. And whilst I was doing that, I was working at a rooftop bar in London as a, as a head host three nights a week. So it's 70 hours a week for a year to get the experience, to be able to, to open up a new opportunity. And sometimes if you don't have that experience, the reality is that you just have to put a bit more work and effort in.

31:08 where I yeah that's what that's what I did really so and you you said you did that um rooftop bar for a year 70 odd hours a week so is is that the next section of journey that we're gonna uh sort of deep dive on yeah I think I think it's probably the next part of my yeah because it feels like that might have been a fairly transformative part of the career journey because so yeah I've done 70

31:34 weeks and it's an interesting period of your life to be in. But I wouldn't change it for the world. So talk to us about the head host and PR exec, which I'm assuming is at the same time. Yeah, so I worked for an amazing company and it was an incredible opportunity. Instinct PR was the was the company. They had brands like QVC at the time and.

32:03 I was actually working on Disney on Ice because that's how I kind of got the intro into them. Feld Entertainment was a client of theirs. So I was doing a lot of consumer PR, fashion PR, has some alcohol brands as well, which was really exciting. And that kind of tied in with my hospitality experience, which I loved. So there was great mentors and great leaders in that PR agency. And working in PR, you just...

32:31 They do so much. Like, I don't think, like, if you want to learn a lot in a short amount of time, go and be an intern at a PR agency because you get thrown in the deep end. You might be, you know, in the merch closet and packing up direct mail and gifting campaigns, which is what I was doing for a lot of the time as an intern. But you also get a lot of trust very quickly as well. And if you want to accelerate your career, I can't recommend.

33:00 working your time in PR enough because people are really skilled within that industry. Just doing a lot of events, journalists, breakfast, lunches, creating press releases, creating client briefs. One of the tasks I hated was getting in at 8am in the morning and having to do the clippings of all the press articles that you've been able to get your brands in.

33:29 Luckily, it wasn't so long ago. And a lot of people would tell me the stories of how they would have to, you know, cut out with scissors the actual clippings from the newspapers and the magazines. We have some tools and technologies helps with that. But yeah, you'd have to get in there early and then send those over to the client for the nine a.m. meetings so they could talk about all the wonderful press press releases they've been included in and articles and things. But it was, yeah, it's fast paced.

33:58 But that really, I think, gave me, I think what I learned from that job was how important having high standards are. Jonathan Kirkby, the owner and managing director of that company, he had really, really high standards. And I think when I first started, I kind of found it frustrating. I was like, oh, I'm just never going to be good enough. But I've reacted really well to being told.

34:28 where I can improve and being given that really candid and open and honest feedback because it shows you just how much room there is to improve and getting that candid feedback was always really appreciated, even if it was frustrating at times. But yeah, it's only a good amount of rigor and accountability and just how much that you can deliver.

34:58 and develop. Yeah, I can I can empathize or align with that. I get really frustrated when you ask for feedback and people give you people don't give you any constructive criticism. Like I like constructive criticism because there's I mean, there's so many cliche sayings of like you learn the most from failing whatever blah blah blah, but it's like if you deliver something and it's not quite right like tell me it's not quite right. I get really frustrated when

35:26 when someone's just like, uh, no, that's great. I'm like, nothing's perfect. So give me, give me some, give me some pointers on, uh, on how to improve. Okay. So you, you, you did, that was eight to five. It was an internship initially. Did that eventually turn into salary? Yep. So it turned into salary. Um, I think it's always be open and honest about this. It was so internship started then on 16 K as a press assistant.

35:55 Which is tough, living in London, you're doing a full-time job and on 16K, it wasn't easy. So you obviously had to, I had to have another job to be able to live, to pay my rent and develop. But again, you know, this is, I didn't have experience and I didn't have a degree. So that was what was required to be able to create an opportunity.

36:21 And then I worked my way up, had a few promotions there, press assistant, junior account executive, account executive, and I loved it. And I would have stayed in that industry for a very, very long time, but yeah, struggling with, with doing 70 hour, 70 hour weeks, I had to look for a different change. So that you did 70 hours for the entire time you were at this PR agency. Yeah. And I, you know, I thought they were.

36:50 I thought the PR agency was excellent in allowing me to work another job as well.

36:57 and I loved it because I got to work in hospitality at a really nice rooftop restaurant and bar. And it was kind of fun, you know, I'm 24 years old in London and I'm meeting new people, making friends, having a good time. It was kind of, it didn't feel like, the rooftop restaurant didn't really feel like work to me. It felt like just a really good time. So I started off there as a

37:27 was looking after a team of I think six hosts, which was cool as well. Started off doing that part-time and then eventually gave up the PR agency and moved in to do that for a time, just on its own. So head host as in Fred off, yeah, yeah, Fred. I'm trying to, I forgot the name, first dates, Fred off first dates, like the compare. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Right, okay, okay, interesting.

37:56 Yeah, it was awesome. And, you know, being again, being in London, I wanted to meet new people and I wanted to be put myself in a position to meet people that could have an influence on me and I could learn from. And that wasn't always my colleagues, but that was also the clients that would come, you know, it wasn't a cheap restaurant, a rooftop bar in the summer. I'd have my regular clients that was taking bookings for and, you know, they were earning.

38:24 They're in good jobs and earning decent money. And it was great being able to sit with them and have that trust with them and learn from them as well. So, um, yeah, it's very grateful to have that job as well. Okay. So we, as we said, like being in an environment where you're working 70 hours a week, um, whether that's one job or two jobs, it's very, very challenging, but it's also extremely rewarding in terms of how much you can learn and develop. So what during that intense period,

38:54 What did you learn from 70 hours a week for what I understand is about two years? Yeah, I mean, time was always just very precious. So I think I learned very quickly how to be very efficient with my time and to make sure that, you know, I wanted this. I really, really wanted it. So if I was if I was there and I was putting my time and effort into it, then.

39:22 I wanted to do a good job. I wanted to get things done as efficiently and as well as possible. Uh, and I wanted to, to learn a lot and be a sponge. So that's really what that taught me. But I would say more on a technical skill level, perhaps. Um, I became very good at event management and putting on events, which has stuck with me and I, I love running events. It's probably one of the things in marketing.

39:52 that I love the most is creating experiences. And so that brings in my host experience and creating, yeah, just creating those experiences and that journey for people. I've always been obsessed by the customer journey, whether that's in hospitality from the moment they land on your website's book and come to your website and experience they get there, or whether that's in more on the marketing side from the moment that you invite somebody to your...

40:21 to your event and when they turn up in the journey, you create for them at the, at the event or yeah. So I've always been obsessed with the buyer journey or the customer journey. And, and, um, the PR agency gave me a good, good start to really learning, learning about that. It also, they also taught me how to get creative with budgets because you didn't ever have the biggest budget and, um, no secret working PR. You always need to make markup.

40:50 on what you're offering and what you're giving. So sometimes you have to get creative and be a bit scrappy. So I think that's always taught me to be a bit scrappy. Problems come up all the time as they do with live events or when you're doing things in real time. And it taught me good problem solving skills and how to keep calm and stay, you know, stay collected when things are falling apart around you.

41:20 Um, so, and I, I thrive under pressure and fixing problems. I get very demotivated. One of my demotivators is when there's not a problem for me to fix. I, I completely agree. I don't, I, I don't know what it is. I've always said it's kind of like a slightly sadistic, um, yeah, it's a, it's a strange mentality to have. Like if something, when something's going well, I feel anxious. I'm like, I'm like,

41:49 I don't know what it is. I feel uncomfortable. Uh, when there's something that I don't know how to do, I love learning how to do it or finding the solution to it. If something's broken, Oh, that that's a puzzle. I enjoy like I'd much rather someone give me of like, right. This thing on the website is broken. Go and fix it. Rather versus a puzzle, like an actual creative thing, like a Rubik's cube. I, yeah, I love it. Um, do you reckon like for marketers, where does that

42:18 I if I had to think from a psychological level if I'm thinking back right because that's why a psychologist would be like right what happened in your childhood that means you love solving problems um I think if I for me I think it will probably come from fairly high pressure mom for me so my mom my mom my granddad was very much um

42:46 nothing is perfect and you can always do better. So it doesn't matter how good something was, it'd be like, yeah, but you could have done this or it could have been quicker. So I think my brain was just naturally unconsciously coached into this methodology of nothing's ever fixed. Nothing's ever finished. So it's always like I hunt for I hunt for problems to solve to try and maybe prove to my mom or my granddad that I've done something. Look at this. Look, I've

43:15 Completed something I fixed something maybe for me. I think it's probably something to do with that. But Curiosity Stephen Bartlett talks about curiosity being a superpower like I couldn't agree more It's like one of the things I look for in any higher is is someone naturally curious Like when you say something to them, I want someone to come back but come back with like why? Why are you doing that? Why do you want to do that? Have you thought about this? Why aren't you doing it this way? I love curiosity and it's it's definitely a superpower but

43:45 I wouldn't mind being able to enjoy the good a bit more. Like when things are going well, I'd love to be present in the moment and not look for something to fix. That would be good. But what do you think it is for you? Like, is there a, something you can think back to, or is it just a root trait within you? I think similar to you. I think it's being told no, and then wanting to prove yes. It's...

44:15 Yeah, I think I've always been very good at fighting for what I want. And that comes back to very early days, you know, when I was talking about Youth Parliament. And I genuinely believe that we can make change and we can change things and we can solve problems and we can stretch ourselves and we can do things which people don't think we can do. Are you naturally stubborn? Constructively stubborn? Constructively stubborn.

44:43 And what I mean by I know stubborn gets negative connotations for like standing your ground when you should hear other people's point of views. But what I mean by that is I guess it's to your point about campaigning for something you believe in. What I sort of mean by the constructively stubborn is that you'll happily be proved wrong if you are factually proved wrong, but you always believe you're right until the point you're proven wrong and you'll stick to your guns and you'll follow through.

45:12 That's what I kind of mean by constructively stubborn. I think that's really interesting because I would say I've changed. I would say before I always cared about being right. Whereas now I care about finding the right answer. So I think that's kind of, that's, that's been a, that's been a big change for me. Uh, through my leadership journey, I would say, but I would say I am stubborn when it comes to my core values and what I believe in and.

45:41 my vision and goals because that's always my gut feeling. Like that's always, I've always had that to rely on.

45:54 And whenever anything else is kind of going, going differently around me, like I always have to rely on myself and trust in myself. So I say I'm stubborn in some ways, but when it comes to other people's views and points and I care about finding the right answer over being. Yeah, that's nice. That's a nice way of putting it. I was strangely, I went away with friends at the weekend and I was, I made a statement that was that was wrong or something. And one of my other mates was like,

46:24 Oh, you're wrong for once. Um, and then my other man actually backed me up and he's like, no, in fairness, if he's wrong, he'll hold his hands up and go, look, I was wrong. But the bit I like about being wrong is that I now know what the right answer is. And I won't be wrong again on that point. So it's just that weird, like I, yeah, I love the, the challenge of being proven wrong because it's, it's the best way to learn, right? Be failing or doing something wrong. It's like probably one of the best ways to learn. Um, but I like that. So you're.

46:53 value driven stubbornness. I like that sort of your stubborn on your core values, but flexible on things that are outside of your control. And again, you know, core values, they can change over time by, but they change with experience and with things that you go through personally and things that you care about deeply, I would say. And they probably take a little bit longer to change, change sometimes. But yeah, I think sticking.

47:22 Knowing your core values and what you believe in is, and your reason why is really important. Okay, so two years, 70 hours a week, not much money. I think I know the answer to why you were thinking about your next move or why you've sort of left that that that current period of your career. So what was it that pushed you to think or look for the next challenge? Like you said, you always have to be sort of growing or thinking about the next thing in your five-year goals. What was the what?

47:51 kind of pushed you over the edge of thinking, right, it's time for a change. Yeah. So I tried to get into marketing when I was working as the head host at the rooftop bar and restaurant. So I started to connect more with the management at the hotel and work with the marketing team. So again, when they were doing their press stays and organizing their large events, I was really showing up being present

48:21 kind of doing the job that I wanted before I was doing it. And I always talk about this. You have to do the job that you want before you do it. So I felt like I was putting in a lot of time, commitment, again, stretching myself in terms of the number of hours that I was doing, but I wasn't being respected with the same level of commitment from them or given the opportunity that I think I was looking for compared to the time and effort that I was putting into it. So.

48:51 That's really what drove me to look for something different, was because I couldn't see a pathway to where I wanted to get with where I was at. So that led me back to my initial point of what I thought I wanted to do when I moved to London, which was looking for a BDR role again, and moving to really get into that B2B space.

49:17 following in the footsteps of my good friend, who is the VP of Sales, and the life that I saw him have, as well as some other people that I was surrounding myself with, and the lives that they were able to have. And yeah, I started applying for jobs again, had a bit more experience, things seemed to be going a bit better, got to a good final stage, quite a large company, well-known company, and again, shot down because I didn't have the experience, but the VP of Sales.

49:46 happened to be starting to set up his own recruitment company. And he knew my current boss and the person who hired me, Alex Oli, they'd worked together in the past and yeah, and made the introduction to Alex and to ReachDesk, brand new company, didn't have any customers, didn't have a platform. It was kind of, you know, a vision and goal and dream at this point. And they took me on to be a BDR.

50:15 And that's where my journey into reach desk and B2B sales and marketing really started. It's interesting because we talk about the relationship between marketing and sales a lot and how they should be part of one revenue function. So it's interesting that you started as a BDR more aligned with sales, closer to all sales, and then ended up sort of moving back into marketing. So you.

50:40 Originally, what was it 300 applications total how many applications you reckon you did for BDRs over the two application cycles? Gosh, I mean, I don't know 500 some of them like that. I mean some of them were more personalized than others some of them You're just clicking through and you see the auntie but There's that stubbornness I was talking about though as in like, you know core value stubbornness. So you like you you you know the

51:08 route to get to where you want to go. You have the self belief, the confidence you want the challenge 500 applications. Most people would stop at probably 15. They go, okay, I haven't had success in 15. I'm going to try something else, but you, you kept goings, which I think is, is admirable. Um, right. Let's talk about reach desk then. So you're obviously, uh, people who have read the synopsis, whatever, will know that you're currently at reach desk, but you've been there since in my head, I was doing the rough calculations, but since you were 26 ish.

51:38 Yeah, it must have been 20s, no, younger, 25 maybe. So mid 20s and you're 30ish now. I won't ask your age, it's very rude. But so you've been at Reach Desk for a good number of years. So talk to us about that sort of top level role journey within that, within those few years. Like what's the progression been? Yeah, so my-

52:06 Over the year progression, so I started as a BDR, which was...

52:14 was more than, there was a lot within that role because of the stage that the company was at. I was first commercial hire, so it was a lot of creating marketing materials, setting up CRMs. I was at events five days a week, as well as doing the traditional emailing, LinkedIn outreach, et cetera. Started as BDR, then went on to team lead and started growing the team in the UK.

52:43 Then I became manager of business development, senior manager, set up the US office for the BDR team. Then became director of BD. So at that point, I had a team of 40 people reporting into me. And then this time, around this time last year, is where I transitioned into marketing director and looking after.

53:12 all of our pipeline and revenue, sourced revenue really. So it's been a good five and a half year journey. And again, there's always challenges and problems to solve. And the business has been on many different trajectories and had challenges that come up against it. From being a 16 person company going into COVID and having limited funds and idea of how we would deliver

53:42 direct mail gifts to people when they're no longer in offices, to coming out of COVID and being 300 people as a business and raising Series B and having that hyper growth, to then the market crashing and having to become profitable. So it's been an interesting journey. I've had many roles within Reach Desk and had many different key goals that we needed to work on to maintain growth and stability for the company. But it's been...

54:12 very, very rewarding and had lots of good fun along the way as well. Yeah. So yeah, it sounds like you kind of got a promotion every year, give or take, like for the five issues you've been there, you've kind of got a promotion or, um, well, I mean, director BT to director marketing, it's a side step, but it's still trusting you to move function entirely. I'd see that as a, as progression. Um, so it, I mean, that obviously speaks to what you've been able to do at your time during Reach Desk. Um,

54:41 Now, anyone who's listening to this that works in SAS will understand, um, well, SAS, but also startup will understand, um, the insane level of, um, work stress, hat wearing, um, that you have to do in a startup. Um, but sort of thinking back to that point where you were doing 70 hour work weeks, two different jobs. Um, and when you were, um,

55:10 an ice skater, but you were also doing a little side hustle with the sort of cafe and you were also doing some like PR stuff. It's, it feels like it was the perfect, perfect kind of job for you. Like in ticking that challenge box, ticking the stress box, ticking the fast growth in terms of career growth and self-development. It seems like it tipped a lot of boxes for you. Yeah. It always seems like it has an is because you're still there. You're still there.

55:39 Yeah, I mean, first of all, I was, I didn't know what to do with myself on the weekends because I'd never had weekends off. We're working, you know, it's not, it's not nine to six, but working at nine to six on the paper job was, um, was very odd. Having like that structure, something I'm not very good at is having structure. I like to have a level of freedom still. So, you know, sales works really well for me because what you get, what you put in, is what you get out.

56:08 having a commission-based role, my God, that was very motivating. And if I worked an extra hour and booked a couple more meetings, get paid for it, wow, that's incredible. So I definitely found the place I was meant to be in, being rewarded for your time and commitment and feeling like you can build your own business within a business. That was really exciting for me.

56:38 And yeah, just, just the mission and everything kind of aligning of my experience that's, that got me there so far, you know, even from working in the PR intern, as a PR intern, boxing up direct mail campaigns and taking it to the post office and hating my life so much to now selling a product, which removes the manual work for people who want to do direct mail and gifting to not have to package things themselves and go to the post office and stand in line, collect receipts and...

57:08 Yeah, the whole, it just felt like a very complete moment to that point in my career of all of the life lessons I've been through and experience like gained to what I was now selling was, was awesome. What was your rationale behind choosing a SAS company, a BDR role? So the first commercial hire, what was your logic behind picking sales? Um, as your way or as your next career move?

57:37 Was it that you were like, right, that's the easiest way of getting a job in a sort of industry that I think I want to work in. And then I can learn loads and ultimately pivot once I've made a name for myself. Was that in your mind or was it just I need a different job? I think this is going to be the right thing for the next 12 months. No, that definitely that definitely was a plan.

58:04 It was either looking for marketing, junior, like very junior marketing, marketing coordinator roles or BDR. And to be honest, there's so much crossover between, between them. It's just different activities. I think that you're really doing, but yeah, I didn't really mind what it was. I was doing, I just wanted to get into the industry and, um, start, start learning. Really. That was, that was the, the main.

58:34 main goal. So I think BDR probably aligned with my skill set a little bit more at the time. And I always felt like I could bring something more to the BDR role than what the BDR role was typically known at the time. And yeah, I wanted to stretch, I guess, stretch the role in different ways that had been done before. I think you'd either like typically have had kind of a field

59:03 salesperson who was more your events person and going to events and generating inbound through that way or you'd have your team that was on the phones and heavily cold calling. I wanted to kind of change the role I think a little bit more in making it, making it a bit more than that and showing that you know you could go out and create business opportunities in your own way and I think

59:30 that's probably something unique which I bought the role when I started as well. Is I think probably Alex's idea was that I would be on the phones all the time and calling people and that wasn't always my strong suit, but what my strong suit was, was finding networking events and, um, and finding where people were at and just turning up and, and being present with them and we sell to marketers. And that's always been helpful as well to, to learn from marketers, especially as I've developed into, into my marketing role.

01:00:00 And we, that's what actually funny enough where we first met was a, um, event that deal front did, um, with dream data. I think we did a drinks on a rooftop bar, funny enough in London. Um, and I think that's where we first, um, first connected. Um, okay then. So after the first, uh, you said you've been in marketing role for circa a year, give or take, um, so once you have built up that background in the second more commercial sales side of things.

01:00:29 You were obviously doing very, very well, um, roughly a promotion every year. So what was there a little trepidation of like, I think I want to do marketing, but I seem to be doing very well in sales. Uh, why don't I stick in sales? Yeah. I, I truly believe that the BDR org, it really sits directly in between sales and marketing and so much of.

01:00:58 business development is marketing. It's outbound marketing, but you're still collaborating very much with the marketing team. You're taking the themes, the content, and then you're repurposing it to market in a different way. It's still very much like top of funnel, but just on that conversion piece. So yeah, I truly believe marketing is as a business development really sits right between sales.

01:01:28 and marketing and that's hard because looking after that top of funnel activity and trying to convert it into, you know, middle funnel and then pushing it through and work with sales to accelerate, like there's so much responsibility there and BDs change so much, you know, RBDRs are not just focused now on, it's not just meetings booked, then it became qualified opportunities and now it's how can they work with their account executive to push it through to scoping?

01:01:58 and develop it, you know, keep bringing more people from the buying committee into those deal cycles. And yeah, it's evolved a lot. So I truly believe BD is a craft all in its own and really has to work very well with both sales and marketing. So I wouldn't say, you know, as...

01:02:24 full-on salesperson. I did close a deal whilst I was at Reach Desk, which was a fun opportunity I had to do, but I got very frustrated, so I won't be going back into that anytime soon. And then I worked really closely with the marketing team and reported into our CMO at one point and thought, this is really where I think I can contribute the most at the minute. Because, I mean, it's all the same thing. Your finding pipeline.

01:02:54 your converting pipeline and then your closing pipeline. Whatever role you're in, you're contributing to that main goal of finding pipeline, converting pipeline, closing pipeline. If you really want to simplify it and make it not so sexy, that is, that is what you're doing as a BDR, as a BDR manager, as a marketer, as a AE, you're still finding your own pipeline, converting pipelines, whatever role you're in in the commercial team, you're all doing the same thing, just different ways of doing it.

01:03:21 Now, based on your history in terms of your moves, they were sort of self-sourced as in you were like, right, I need a new challenge, I need a new opportunity. So was that the case of you felt as if you had done, you had reached the point in sales where you're like, right, now it's I need a new challenge and I want to switch to marketing? Or was it a natural, more holistic move within the business? Talk to me about how that actually came about.

01:03:51 Yeah, so I think we've spoken through my career journey, how I've probably always had to fight to get to the next thing or create those opportunities, really create those opportunities for myself. This was an odd one and I really struggled with this because this is where my boss and CRO came to me and said, would you take on marketing? And I think, you know, we always had a career.

01:04:20 development goals and plans where I would like to move into a marketing role in the future. But this was a time where I hadn't already been doing the job before I got asked to do it. And I think I, we were at dinner and I started pitching to him reasons why I shouldn't do it, which was very odd. He was like, why are you doing this? I'm giving you an opportunity and you're telling me reasons why it shouldn't be you. And I was like, well, I want to make sure that you're really clear, like that I understand where, where my...

01:04:50 where my strengths aren't ultimately. I don't know why I went into pitching, why I shouldn't do it. But it's all in the world. Jack and Zaka, we have a meeting, would tell you that that is a very good sales tactic. So when you actually tell a prospect why they shouldn't buy from you, it shows honesty, builds rapport, and it can actually swing the other way. And they're like, well, you've told me why I shouldn't buy from you, but I actually.

01:05:15 uh, that's made me think and I really should buy from you. So it is apparently, it's a psychological way of, uh, actually paying, playing, uh, in your favor. Hmm. Yeah. I don't know if that was my intention, but it worked. Yeah. And, and then that's really how, how it came about that, uh, I got the opportunity to move into this marketing role and that's the other part with

01:05:44 promotions and progression. I think a lot of people might have been worried about taking on a new team that was far more experienced than you. And I was definitely concerned about that because, you know, I was coming into manage a team of marketers who were trained professionals in their specialties and been working with great marketing leaders. Um, and when you, when you move from IC to manager, you go through that point of time as well, where you're like.

01:06:12 imposter syndrome, can I do this? You know, are people going to want to get behind my vision and leadership style? And they're going to react well to that whilst I'm also learning. You know, why would people want to stick around with me whilst I'm currently figuring things out and learning? But again, this is where I've gone through similar transformations and transitions within my journey before, where I actually felt quite confident about that. You know, I was really excited to lean into the fact that

01:06:42 I didn't have this experience, but was really confident that I was working with a great group of people that did have the experience. And again, I just get to learn from them. You know, I get to remove the blockers for them, help them in their careers and advocate for them in the same way that I've had people advocate for me and learn from them and allow them to thrive in the roles that they're doing as well. So that's something which I have really appreciated about this year is the people I work with and how much I've learned from them.

01:07:12 Yeah, there's a Jimmy Carr quote. I think he was on a podcast with Chris Williamson, Modern Wisdom podcast, and he said, like, if you don't feel like an imposter once every 18 months, you're doing it wrong. And I think I've tried to sort of, in hindsight, it seems like I've always that thing about wanting a challenge and being slightly stressed, like going into a role where you're not sure if you can do it. I think is a good thing. Because if you're going into a role.

01:07:41 every time going, I'm going to absolutely smash that easy. It's not a big enough role for you. So I think going into a role where you actually, like you said, you sat at a table and you're like, right, here's the reasons why I think I'll be a terrible fit for this job. It's that that's the, it's like, I don't know, a boiler room of just old to like. Unreal growth, like going into a role where you either have to learn or you'll go your single swim, you're, you, you either have to learn adapt or you will, you will literally just drown very, very quickly. So I think.

01:08:11 you touched on the things that you have learned. So over the past year, give us the highlights, the top level of like the things that you've learned during that period, that your first full, fully fledged marketing role, lots of responsibility and stuff. What's that look like for you? I think first thing I've learned is, I mean, turning up to a one-to-one with a design lead, and I am not at all a creative designer.

01:08:41 thinking, how can I, how can I even begin to understand one, how I should be assessing their work to what it is that we're going to talk about, how am I going to help them like as a, as a leader when I have no idea that, you know, they're the expert. Um, how am I going to structure this team? How am I going to just all these things around before, I think before when I was managing a BDR team, you know, I've been a BDR, I've done it, done the job, knew it.

01:09:11 hit my targets consistently, was able to coach people on it, felt like the expert in it. So how was I, it was that transition this year of, I don't know a lot of these things, but I don't have to. And I think that's been a real pivotal thing for me is being comfortable, not knowing, but trusting in people in my team that really do know. So I think that's been a huge lesson, how to ask the right questions during one-to-ones, how to...

01:09:40 assess people's work and performance in a way which isn't so metric driven always. That's been really a good journey for me to learn and to form those career progression paths and PDP conversations in a different way to what I've been able to do in those other roles that I've been in. What else have I learnt this year? I've also learnt that you can't measure everything.

01:10:10 I've done some things and as a team, we've done some things and we're like, should we do this? How are we going to measure if it works? And we've not been able to measure if it works, but the things that we've done has made a really positive impact on, on, uh, the outcomes that we really care about, you know, pipelines improved, team efficiencies improved, our spends decreased. But you know, we can't always say, um, what's, what's contributed towards that. And I think.

01:10:40 I think it's nice sometimes not to have that pressure, but also think about that for next year as well. So something which we're taking from that is definitely having more of a, more budget or allocating more budget into things that we can't always measure or can't always prove. What else have I learned this year?

01:11:06 Ken, something I touched on earlier is caring about finding the right answer, not being right. Now, one of the misconceptions that I had is my belief was that power dialers and cold calling at scale could never and would never work. Because I always believe, I believe that when you have a conversation with somebody, it should be well researched, it should be, you know...

01:11:35 you should always have their picture up in front of you. So you feel like you're able to emotively have a conversation with them and, and really walk them out in your prospect shoes. So I just was always anti, anti-dialers, anti, uh, anti-scaled cold calling. Um, I've been working with Brandon, who is our head of business development now. And one of the first initiatives that he wanted to bring in was bringing in a power dialer. And.

01:12:04 Um, he went on a mission to ask for forgiveness over, uh, asking for permission, which I always really respect that anyway, but, um, he did it and you know what? He doubled our pipeline. And I thought, wow, that's just something which I would never have done and didn't believe in it, but it was great to like go through that, that moment of bringing, bringing in somebody who's smarter and had a different strategy than, than I did, but was doing the job, which I was just in.

01:12:33 sounds like that was quite humbling. Yeah, you touched on the hiring and bringing in people that smile. So I think this is another I don't know if it's a it's a I think the most famous quote version of the quotes from Richard Branson, who is very, very, very open about dyslexia and things. And he always basically said that he's

01:12:57 hired people to do the jobs that he can't do. Like he hires experts so he doesn't have to do it. Like he says himself, he's like, I'm not actually very good at much. And that's what, but that's why I hire people. And then Stephen Barlet spoke about that a lot. Like the most important job for a senior leader or for CEO for C-suite or for head directors heads off is hiring people that are better than you in the area that you need them to be better than you. Like if you're not good at writing copy, get a copywriter. If you're not good at design.

01:13:25 hire an expert designer. And that's something that I've learned over the past, I think it's been 10 months for me in role. And I've made a few hires in that time. And one of them was bringing Becky who I'd worked with previously into the team because I knew she was a shit hot writer. And then, you know, fast forward six months, she's been here now and copy is no longer a bottleneck. And it's everyone's like, oh my God, the copy is great. And it's just like that skill of hiring. Yeah, that's definitely something that I can...

01:13:54 align with or relate to. Um, okay, then we've got to, we've got, we've got about 10 minutes left. So we're going to do a quick wrap up, um, with some quick fire questions. So top three clips, clips, top three tips for someone wanting to. Progress in their career. So top three tips of career growth. Yeah. Okay. So number one is you have to communicate up. Um, I truly believe that you have to make things easier.

01:14:24 for your boss. I don't believe in hierarchy as such. I actually quite, you know, within my teams that I develop, make sure that, yes, there's a chain of ways that we do things, but when it comes to generating ideas and challenging, there's no hierarchy. But one thing that you have to do is really effectively communicate up and communicate problems early, communicate your plans early.

01:14:53 and communicate what progress or challenges is being made. So I use a framework called PPP, which is progress plans problems. Learned this as an intern at the PR company, Jonathan Kirkley implemented this and I hated it to start with. Why does every week do I have to send the MD an update on my progress plans problems? Number one, it's because they can't be everywhere. And as you move up, you just can't be everywhere. So...

01:15:22 people that communicate up to you really help you understand what's happening, um, happening across, across the organ, across the department. Actually then that's how change really can happen very quickly. Um, so PPP is a great way of communicating up. Just, just quickly on that PPP, how often are you communicating progress plans problems? Is that weekly? Is that monthly? Is that just in your month end reports? Like, what does that look like? So

01:15:49 For a new member on the team, I recommend that they do that daily for the first three months, because that helps with their onboarding and getting a really good speed to starting. Then, after that, I recommend that you do it weekly. And then, for me, I would like to do that more monthly now, just because of the amount of syncs that we have on an ongoing basis and things like that anyway. But...

01:16:18 As you're looking for quick career progression, the more you communicate, um, the better it is for you to, so to be able to progress and make those jumps. Yeah. I was just, I was just Googling it in the background because I've, I've not heard the PPP progress, um, plan problems, but I really liked that. Uh, I didn't in my one-to-ones I've got, uh, it's not called progress plans, problems, but it's funny enough. It is what have you done this week? What have you got coming up?

01:16:45 And are there any blockers and it's that's your progress, your plan and your problems. Yeah, that's interesting. I like that. Um, I'm definitely going to start referring to it as PPP or three P's. Um, and I'm going to definitely say that it was a conscious decision of a management technique that I implemented. Um, okay. Number two, number one communication, number two and three. Uh, data is key. And the way that you communicate data, um, is really important. So. I'm not, you know,

01:17:14 I'm not, I'm not the smartest cookie, but having a really, one way that I communicate data really effectively is by using a memo. So what I found is if you're building a business case, if you're trying to make a change within a company and you have to get cross-departmental buy-in on it, one way that I really have worked hard at to be able to do that really effectively is, is through memos. So.

01:17:42 What I like to do is send, create a memo. The favorite part of that memo is the FAQ section. So you're already getting ahead of what you think people are going to challenge you on or what questions they might have. Send it out before the meeting and tell people, here's the memo. Need you to read through it, leave any comments early on. And then when you come to those meetings, you bring your data, you bring your theories, everything already.

01:18:10 in a place that people can read through and digest and have had time to process and ask questions about. And then in those meetings, what you do is you get into really good discussions around it. But number one, data is key to memos have been a really pivotal and important part to making change and getting buy-in from multiple leaders, different team members, and allowing people the space to contribute towards it as well. And then.

01:18:39 My third tip is experience. So as I mentioned before, do the job you want before getting into it. One of the things that you need to do is prove to people that you have capacity to take on more responsibility. My philosophy around career growth and development is opportunities happen in two ways. Number one, you've got more time and you're ready to take on more opportunity, but also there's a business need. So...

01:19:09 If you're sitting back and waiting for opportunities to come to you, it's never going to happen. You need to always be creating your own opportunities and pitching to the business and to your boss ways you can have more of an impact. So I truly believe doing the job you want and working through and getting experience is just really important. And sometimes you have to work harder. That's just the reality.

01:19:38 If you don't have that experience, but you want fast growth progression, the reality is that you have to make up for it in your own time and put extra time and effort into it. It's called work, right? It's called work. So you kind of have to put in some effort. There's too many work shy people nowadays who expect, oh, it's been a year. I deserve a pay rise. And it's like, well, you know, put the work in. So I, yeah, that one.

01:20:08 that one massively and I love the whole do the job you want before getting into it. Um, it's going to prepare you for the job as well. Like it's not, you're not doing it in vain just to get the job. It's actually going to help you during that initial first few months of that job. So yeah, those are good. So communication data and experience data is, um, I love data. I was always, I always loved maths at school. Um, and I'm building out a new reporting dashboard for 2025, which is a bit of a, like a

01:20:34 slightly geeky thing that I'd just love doing in the afternoon. So that's going to be a big focus of mine in, in, uh, next week in February. So communication, data and experience. Okay. Any regrets today? My regret that I have, I love finding trends and, um, and again, leaning in my experience of things that I've done before, one of the things I did in, in, in PR was, uh, which was mainly me to see was, uh, influencer marketing.

01:21:04 We all saw the trend, you know, influencers making a load of money on Instagram and now it's moving to TikTok. I started as a BDR running some influencer campaigns at Reach Desk and they had really good traction. And you know, other things happen and other priorities and things slip, you know, things aren't in your responsibility. And obviously we're now in a place with B2B marketing where influencers is just so important, becoming such a...

01:21:34 crucial ways to increase brand loyalty and brand presence and recognition and trust ultimately. And that's one thing which I was already way ahead of the curve five years ago with how I wanted to use influencer and I never did it in the way that I could have done it. So I think, you know, for me and my personal brand, if I put more effort into it and more focus into it, what could have that done for me now, but also

01:22:03 for the company I work at, you know, if I'd really Beated that drum and stuck to what I thought I could achieve from from influencer marketing, worked on that five years ago, where would we be with that now? So it's probably one of the things which niggles me of a nighttime. It's interesting because when I asked this question, the majority of people go, no, I don't have any regrets. You shouldn't have regrets in life. I'm one of the people like you who will actually list, no, I do have a regret.

01:22:31 And I think again, it speaks to that thing of us not thinking things are perfect or the whole thing of like finding a solution, something there's a problem. I want to go and fix it. Like you've identified that no, there is actually there's something bugged you. And I think it's just the mentality of yeah, I don't know. I think there's there's always going to be those little that you call them niggles. There's always going to be those little niggles that some people will list as regret and some people won't. But no, I like the fact that you that you've got something that

01:23:01 that continues to niggle away. Okay, right, last couple of questions then. So like what's next on the ladder for you over the next few years and what is the ultimate end goal? So my ultimate end goal is I'd love to set up my own business within hospitality, the restaurant space, combine all of my life learnings together with things that I really enjoy.

01:23:30 enjoy doing and I love hospitality and I love creating these experiences and I'm a massive foodie and you know when people ask what's your hobbies and I say I generally enjoy going out to nice restaurants and having a good dining experience and the whole experience of it. I struggle with admitting that was my hobby but it is my hobby and I feel it starts to get really comfortable with that you know I enjoy a good cocktail experience and these are things that I really enjoy and that's something which I want to I think turn into a career in the future.

01:24:00 Um, yeah, so that's kind of my, my life part three, I would say, but I've definitely still got many years left in me of, um, of learning, enjoying of the corporate world, as they say. Yeah. No, that's I'll keep an eye on it. Cause I'm a, I'm a big foodie. I love, uh, brunch is my favorite meal to eat out. I don't know why I love a good brunch. Um, well, that's been a, a really, really interesting, uh,

01:24:27 90 minute conversation. Like I said, I was intrigued about the, uh, your background, the ice skating and everything. And I think it just goes to show, um, that you don't need a degree in something. You don't necessarily need to have a 10 year background in something to get to this, you know, the, the top tiers of, of marketing, um, in an industry, fast based industry like SAS and everything in London as well, which is even higher pace and higher pressure. So.

01:24:54 I think there's going to be lots of actionable sort of stories and tips and things that people can take away from the last 90 minutes. So I appreciate you jumping in. Thank you so much for having me. It's felt like a therapy session. So I really enjoyed it. Yeah, you're not the first person who says that. It's therapy for me as well. Don't worry. But if you enjoy the episode, please hit the follow like button on whatever platform you're listening to or listening or watching Spotify, YouTube, etc.

01:25:22 And we hope to see you in the next episode or next season, because I don't know where this episode's going to fall in the season, but, um, yeah, we hope you enjoy the episode and we will catch you soon.