00:03 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Revenue Career Ladder podcast, where we dive deep into the career journeys of revenue focused professionals to hopefully give you insights, tips, and maybe evil, even a little reassurance that the journey is yours to define. So in this episode, I'm joined by Laura Erdem, and we're going to be chatting about a journey from radio DJ to sales manager Americas. Now that's the sales managers Americas. That's a

00:31 happening right now sort of thing. So that's going to be very, very interesting. But radio DJ, I'm very interested to talk about that. But before we do, how are you Laura? I'm breathing. A lot of things going on, which is amazing. And which is what I love. This is what I signed up for. This is what gives me energy, but it's a ride. It's a lot of stuff going on at the moment, the move, the end of year and the...

00:59 the best quarter a dream data ever is a lot of stuff. I'm very good. I'm thriving. It speaks to it speaks to the market and the time of year that your measure of how you are is that you're breathing. Yeah. But at least you're breathing. At least we're here. We're having this conversation. And I think I've had a look at the notes and the feedback that you've given before this. And it looks like an interesting career to chat through. And I think that's the whole point of this is that we will

01:27 go back through the last 10 or 15 years of your career and we'll try and find some patterns, some good bits and bad bits, things you learned along the way. And hopefully someone listening who is earlier on in their career will piece together some insights and apply it to their career over the coming years. But like we said, we're gonna start with your first ever job. We've had people who work in fish and ship shops, we've had people with paper rounds, we've had people who are maths tutors.

01:56 but for you, Radio DJ, which is very, very cool. That's way cooler than all the others. So tell me about the Radio DJ. Yeah, for sure. So what happened was I was at school and one of very known radio stations came over to our school to create some episodes from school. And I think they were even streaming live. And they said, Oh, anybody would like to create an advertisement for like this show that we're doing? So, all right, I'll do it.

02:24 And I did it, it was out live in that biggest radio station in Lithuania for many months. And I said, that could be something that I could do. Because you know, you're young, it's like, there's nothing you cannot do. And then I knew a girl who knew a guy who owned a radio station and I said, should we go and visit them? She's like, sure, he's my friend, let's go. So I went over to them and said, guys, do you want somebody to DJ for you?

02:54 my portfolio, I've got an ad. He said sit down at the microphone speak. And I was speaking for a little while. I think I even read the ad and so on. And he said, all right, would you do that in the weekends? But sure. What should I do? You're going to do, I think I was doing top hundred. And if I wanted, I was also able to bring in guests to interview them as well. And that's what I did for four months. And with all due respect, that guy.

03:24 He fucked me. Sorry, you'll have to cut this out. No, well, I haven't decided whether we're going to remove swear words, but I quite like keeping the beeps in. It's, you know, yeah. So I was not paid for the whole period of time. That was the worst thing because we've agreed on the salary. We did sign an agreement, but then later on he did not pay me for the job that I did. But if we spin this round in terms of a silver lining.

03:51 I would say, do you think that it's helped in all of the social selling stuff you do now? Yeah, a lot. So it has also shaped a lot of things in my career in general, because after school I had to write down what is it that you want to study? And the first thing I wrote down was journalism, just because I did that. And I did not get into that school because I did not pass the main exam. And

04:16 Then later on in life, look at me, this microphone in front of me seems a little bit similar to what has been happening for what is it like 17 years ago. Yeah, I think serendipity is very fun in this situation. Now I'm going to put you on the spot here. Can you give us a taste of your top 100 radio voice? It's very funny because like it was like that evening radio voice. So today's episode, no, like I was doing that in Lithuania as well. So.

04:48 I can't even get that. It's like you speak in Lithuanian, you present your songs and the cool thing is at the end I was allowed to play whichever songs I wanted. So that was kind of also fun stuff. Friends are listening and everybody was making a list for me what to play at the end of the shows.

05:15 Okay, before we move on then, what's your favorite song right now? Oh, right now? I think it's...

05:28 Or your favorite song ever, whichever comes to your mind first. So the recent two songs, we were recently with my friends in Italy and there are two Italian songs that are playing on repeat. It's the... How is that? Tiamo, one of the songs. I'll give you the list, but it's very funny. It's those like sing along songs in the car when you don't speak the language, but you still sing along. Right.

05:55 I've got a particular image in my head, or at least what it might sound like in that car. No, Perchè ti amo? I think that's what it's called. Very very old song. I think it's from like the 80s or something. There you go. No, I'm a terrible singer, so I'm not even going to attempt. Okay, right, into the belly of the conversation then. So we're going to go through some highlight roles, we're going to talk about why you took them, what you learned, why you left, all that good stuff.

06:25 your first highlight role, what was sort of the first one that came to mind? Yeah. So I was, when I was at the university, I went to the U S to work for the whole summer and then I came back. I was looking for a job and I needed a proper job because like working at call centers and so on. Now I'm one of the last years at school. I started to look for a proper job and I was called up by a tech agency.

06:51 saying oh we've got this job in a tech company and would you like to have a chat with us and I was thinking tech company and I literally said that to the guys I said tech company guys I don't even know how to do excel properly that was what what tech was for me I was like no don't worry this is like a coordination role yada yada they're opening an office in Lithuania it's a global company would you like to speak yeah sure so I spoke with them and I really

07:21 Because I was thinking, that cannot be right. These people are asking like, how much would you like in salary? And I quickly calculated in my head, how much I'm not paying for rent? How much do I need for food? How much do I need for parties? And maybe 5% more than that? It's like insane amount in my head. And at the end of the day, they called me. I said, would you like to take this job? I said, oh my gosh. So it was perfect, perfect, perfect in so many directions that I took the job. And I also, that I did not...

07:50 kind of in my head I was thinking, should I follow my passion and still continue working for advertisement agencies? I was doing a lot of ads and like, radio ads and TV ads and so on. I was like, you're paid quite okay, but now I need like a normal job. And I took it. The reason I took it, it was an international company. So I'm moving away from just working in a Lithuanian company.

08:19 And I'm going to work with tech, which I'm still not sure if I know what that is. So I was to do coordination jobs at a huge American corporation that had a head office in Denmark for their European team, which also meant that I will have to travel to Denmark. And that was the best decision I've ever taken in my life. It has given me so many opportunities. I have met the most inspiring leaders I've ever worked for. People that I look up to.

08:48 that really, really care for you as a person, even though you're young, even though you're inexperienced, they trust in the energy that you bring in and how you are doing your job differently than what they actually have been expecting you for. It has been an insane experience. I've been there for seven years. And what was the title? Knowledge Manager at the beginning. So what I needed to do was I needed to...

09:15 have a system of all the solution architects, very techy people, what kind of skills do they have, and when new projects appear, so a little bit like a consulting business, when new projects appear, those people have to be assigned to those jobs. So I needed to know who's available and who can we assign because of their skills as well.

09:35 And you said you were there seven years, which is almost unheard of in today's climate in a way, I guess, in most professions, actually. Yeah, it is. It is. But all due respect, I had two kids during that period. So two years were out of career as such. But every time I came back after my girls, then I got a different role. So the company has been evolving a lot. And.

10:04 Some of the other roles that I was doing, so we were doing a big transformation of the company. We have been hiring a lot of graduates. So I was running the graduate program and managing those graduates. Then we have been doing a very unfortunate transformation where a lot of people had to be fired. I was a part of that transformation project as well. More or less maintaining lists of what is going to happen, talking to HR and reporting to management who's going to be on the list and off the list. This was the hardest job I've ever done because

10:33 people on the list were friends and people who I knew. And who are you, like 20 something, who is coordinating that? It's like, that was the hardest job ever, ever, ever. And after that, I was given a role of a manager for a development team as well. Nothing to do with development, but I was helping those people to get the right projects, the right places within the company. Was fun as well. But during that time, I was like, now it's seven years, kind of.

11:02 I'd love to stay here, but something else should happen. So I felt like I could do sales, because I was at a conference in New Orleans together with CSE as well back then, and I was speaking with a lot of salespeople, and it seems like it's something that I could be doing, and I would like to explore that. It was not like a very thought-through idea that, oh, I would be a perfect salesperson or something, but it's something that I wanted to do, and still had a lot of steam to say, take me. Give me a chance.

11:32 And I spoke to a couple of sales managers. It's a huge corporation. So like sales teams are all over in that team. Like imagine IBM, that type of a size. And that's been said, like, you're kind of good at what you're doing and we don't need juniors and you're kind of not a junior either. It's like, all right, something has to happen. So what was it? Cause I would say not many people who don't work in sales.

12:01 just sit there one day and go, do you know what? I reckon I'd be quite good at sales. I want to give it a go. It's the, it's, it tends to be something that people either fall into or coming out of university or school that they pick because it's one of the most readily accessible jobs. But what was it that attracted it attracted you to the function, the role? I think it's because I have seen how partnerships used to work at, uh, at CSE. So we have been partnering with other tech companies as well and I could see the sales managers working.

12:30 CSE as a customer. So how they have been doing the job in order to come closer to the projects. And I saw that as a very exciting job to, to see how can you as a salesperson bring in business and find opportunities for those two companies to collaborate. And in that sense, it was very big projects like transformational projects for, for IBM's and I don't know, net apps of the world, which, which I found very exciting, but it was.

13:01 It was a difficult job to find a niche, how to come into it. Cause there we go. So you're not a junior, you're kind of a senior in this company and you want to go into sales. So we can't hire as an SDR, but you're not an account executive. So what do we do? We just say no. And that's what I got. So you, when you decided to leave, did you, uh, have to take a title cut and a pay cut to get into sales or was.

13:30 the choice to move so you could move into sales and maintain that level of seniority that you had? Seniority was never a thing for me. So I kind of never was thinking about climbing the ladder really. I was assigned a manager job. I was collecting the experiences and where I could be using those in the company I worked at. So passion was one of the things that really, really drove me.

13:56 but I did not leave the company because they said no, because I love the company. It's the best company I used to work for because of the colleagues. I had the best time at CSE. But then I started looking for jobs and luckily I had two offers at hand. One of them in Salesforce and one of them at Red Hat. And I took Red Hat. And now when I'm thinking back, it's so fortunate that I did. Like...

14:25 I light up in my whole mind and soul when I think back about the job that I had at Red Hat. So I took the position cut, as you say. It was, I became an inside sales person, which means supporting account executives. I had three to support when they were doing their job, like pricing and quoting, very rarely call calling, so it's not a typical SDR position.

14:49 but it was more like coordination for account executives because they were working on big projects, but it's like multi-million projects for Linux solutions and so on. So that's what I did, but the lucky thing is I did not have to take a salary cut. It's sales, so you're paid well. I actually got a bit of a higher salary than what I used to be paid at the CSE.

15:14 which is also a very attractive thing to do. So you're going to do something that, assumingly you're probably going to like, and the salary is going to be higher. So for my type of personality, it was just a win, win, win in all situations, because I could feel the company's amazing. Yeah, so the only reason I asked about the title card, I think there's a lot of, naturally there's a lot of pride, right? People have these aspirations or dreams, but they're fairly limited or they feel stuck.

15:42 based on I've worked my way up in this particular profession. I've got this title. I don't want to lose it. I don't want to take a step back at like a metaphorical step back, but interesting. Okay. So inside sales at Red Hat. So it's, um, it's probably the, or probably the first person I've spoke to who's been in that role. Interestingly, speak to a lot of SDRs, AEs, but never inside sales, supporting AEs with the more coordination side of things. So that's, that's interesting.

16:11 So you, where were, was that in the same place or was it remote? Oh, it was in Copenhagen. That's another cool thing that attracted me to smaller companies too, because Red Hat is a huge corporation. It was bought by freaking ABM, the biggest acquisition in the world of tech. But in Copenhagen, when I joined, we were, I think I was number six and the first woman, it happens every time, every time in my career, more or less, but the

16:40 That was also what attracted me. Smaller company, very experienced people to work together with. And we were not that many in Denmark. The head office of the Nordics was in Stockholm. It was pretty large. I was traveling there once in a while, but in Denmark, it was seriously. Unlimited play. The world is your oyster. And that's how it felt at the very beginning of Red Hat. It was amazing.

17:06 So, okay, so you were in your first sort of highlight role for seven years. What age were you, uh, ballpark when you left for Retta? I was.

17:17 So I think I was a bit under 30. It was like 28, I think. 28. Okay. So you like, yeah. So you, you did go into, go into sales relatively late for like the typical entry point to sales. So, okay. So you were at 28, which from memory is that age for me at least. And for those that I've spoken to so far, where you 28 to 30 is the age where you're like, right. Um, I love.

17:45 you know, life's getting a bit more serious now. I'm an adult now. I need to start making more logical decisions. I need to start making decisions that are more focused on future and career. And am I right in saying you had two kids at this point as well? OK. And I think the reason for this late or not late time frame for me is different, because in all the current books of what time should you do what, I got kids really early. I was 24.

18:15 And in the normal book of when should you be planning your kids? It's around the thirties. So I already have kids and they were already taking care of my husband. So I like, I have the stability and luxury to take a cut in my title and join an exciting company and just don't look for that type of stability where, oh, everything is set and I'm the boss and I know what the next step is going to be. No, I was moving.

18:45 away from that. Yeah, no, I think that's the reason I asked because it's it's not that like we were talking about before we started recording. It's not that like linear progression that everyone assumes that you have to have and like it. When you come out of college or university, I think the expectation is that you're going to get job one, job two, job three, and it's going to be about two years for each job and you're going to get promotion and the pay rise each time. Fast forward 15 years and you've got the job that you wanted it but it's not

19:13 quite like that. So you, okay. So 28, two kids decided you wanted, wanted to go into sales. Uh, was Red Hat like overall, was that a, a good experience? It was amazing. It was so fantastic. Seriously, company culture. If there is a book to be written about company culture, it has to be written about Red Hat. Their CEO actually has written a book about open organization. It, it has taught me so much of how decisions are taken.

19:41 of how everybody in the company can be involved in decision making and being happy of whatever decision is taken because we have done that together. It has taught me a lot, a lot in collaboration and all the people that I used to work with, they're really good friends and even if I haven't spoken with them for several years, we can just reach out and have a chat together. Amazing experience, really. If anybody is considering joining a bigger corporation,

20:08 Now it's a part of IBM, so maybe it's a bit different, but still it's a separate entity. So it's a fantastic workplace. And when you say you learned a lot about open source culture, what do you mean by open source culture? Give us an example of what that means like day to day. Give me an example. So Red Hat is loved in the open source community because it's Linux. It's all of the people who work in open source, they know Red Hat because Red Hat is kind of commercialized open source because you can buy support for

20:37 open source. Anyway, so Red Hat has an amazing brand and the logo, which all the techie people love. Some of them have tattoos of it on their bodies. And then suddenly Red Hat decides we got to change the brand. It actually does not fit in some of the images that we're doing and so on. And it has been 10, more than 10 years that they have had the same image. So we have to change the picture. And everybody...

21:06 really deeply cares of what's going to be next. So what they did, and that's in a nutshell how open source works. First, they asked all the people, how do you think we need to change the brand? How do you think the brand picture should look like? Should we continue with a hat? Should we have some text on it? And so on free form. And then they got everybody who came with their suggestions. They used AI to combine the pictures back then. It's a lot of years ago. They combined,

21:35 have been given to designers to create. Then those four pictures have been pushed to the whole organization, including open source community to vote. Which one do you prefer? So now everybody has been asked and then everybody has been asked again. And when they chose the final version, it was not because somebody decided to draw it and think it's very beautiful. It's because everybody were a part of that type of a decision. It can sound hard sometimes, and it is.

22:04 if you need to take bigger decisions, but, but most of the times it's definitely possible. I see an interest on that particular example from a marketing point of view, I would love to relinquish some control because then there's less pressure on me to choose what something looks like or whatever. And doing it like that. So interesting, interesting. Okay. So you, how long were you there for total? Four years.

22:30 years. What did your journey in terms of roles look like during that four year period? That felt a very interesting thing. So, and especially for a woman, I focus on that a lot as well because sales for a woman is not an easy place to be, but it can be very rewarding. So, I was an inside sales role for I think a year when we opened up a, I don't remember what's the middle position for it. I think some...

22:59 account executive, but I think like mid, something like it. Yeah, mid market account executive, they opened up a position. I was like, guys, I think I can take it. I've been following those AEs for some time, I've actually been closing some of the deals together with them. So I'm really close to this, and I could take this mid market position. And I got to know. And they hired another person into the team. So that was fucking hard. And then

23:27 I said, okay, I'm not stopping. So I spoke with my manager, what do we need to do in order for me to get the next position? Okay. So you have to try to close your own deals. You have to do this and this and that. Then I got a mentor inside of the company who is very well known as well, which also meant that strategically I'm putting myself into the position that he will know that I want this as well. My manager will know that I want this as well. My team in Denmark will know that my manager was in Stockholm.

23:55 Everybody will know this that I'm working hard for this and I have to show everybody that I can the next time no positions were open I got the next position and Enterprise account executive he I think it's called key account executive in there Anyway, then he got a management position. So I took over his accounts, which means that slowly I started transitioning into key account management as well. Very hard very big accounts

24:24 public sector in Denmark and so I've closed my biggest deals in Red Hat back then. And it's a very strategic role that is in a key account or enterprise, whatever you want to call it. It is. It's you own the biggest accounts. So there were three key account executives and one of them was myself. I was working most with the public sector, which I hopefully don't have to do it again very hard, but very rewarding as well. And you can definitely close the biggest deals from the public sector as well.

24:54 That's an interesting tip there. So if you're working, let's take this example. You're in inside sales, you're supporting, you're collaborating with the AEs helping them close deals. And you wanted to move into a different role. You challenge your manager and say, OK, what do I need to do in order to get into that? And then that is your next three to six months of your action plan, your goals, your objectives in terms of moving. That's a very, very good piece of advice. You're not always going to have.

25:22 uh, on paper, the skills, the aptitudes, the knowledge to get a role, even if you want to, even if you think you're ready for it. Um, so I think that's a very, very good being open and honest with your manager and actually saying to the business, these are my aspirations. What do I need to do in order to get there? Exactly. More or less every single time when I thought, Oh, I would like that position. I got to know, but then I had to find a way how to do it. And maybe that position was not for me. Maybe it's, uh, anyway, that was kind of.

25:51 discouraging that I actually did this, but I did this. And then you figure out what your passion is, what you like and what you don't. It could be that you aspire it just because you're ambitious and you think this is cool or somebody else has it, I need it too. We're in sales, so those types of personalities are here all the time. And like either it is competition of who are you competing as a company with or competition with yourself, with your pay, whatever that is.

26:20 but you'll have to fight for it in order to get it. Okay, so it sounds like you had a very good seven years in your first sort of highlight role, very good four years in your second highlight role. You went from inside sales to mid market to enterprise or key accounts. Why did you leave then? Like, because it sounds like it was pretty much the perfect environment to grow and learn. So what made you leave? It was, I really seriously, when I think back about Red Hat, only the best thoughts. The couple of things that happened, to start with,

26:49 Red has been acquired by IBM. And everybody started anticipating, what's gonna happen? How's it gonna be? And they were saying, we're not gonna touch you. The technology is going to stay. But then you could see that key account managers from IBM wanted to do some certain things, and now they've got the access to this type of technology. Let's collaborate. And then you know that technology from IBM maybe is not exactly what you would like to be selling to your clients. Anyway, so this has been happening, but I could have lived with that. That's...

27:18 Still, we have an amazing team and amazing people to collaborate with. And then a recruiter reached out to me. Recruiter reached out to me and said, Laura, would you like to work at Gartner? People call me, that's fine. Gartner? I don't know. But then they said, there are a couple of things. You will be selling to the C25 C-level people in Denmark, huge corporations like.

27:46 Vestas and Lego or whatever you name it the biggest companies, you know from Denmark These are the ones that are in the portfolio of the people you who are in your team then the salary that I pushed for was more than 25% higher than what I'm getting in Red Hat and In addition to that I have never been properly trained to be a salesperson and here they'll send me to London for two months intensive course of challenger sales

28:16 So the third card for me was like, oh my God, if I really hate this, I come out of this much more clever with a bigger group of people that I know of C level in Denmark and I've earned good money. So if everything is shit, then I've got a lot of things I'm taking out of this. So I had to say yes. And a lot of my colleagues, I still remember the talk that one of my favorite colleagues, Peter, said to me, is that Laura Gardner?

28:46 Are you serious? Like you could just as well go and work for Oracle. His wife works for Oracle. And I always used to laugh at him. It's like, no way I'm ever joining Oracle. And you can just as well do that if that's only for pay. It's like, no, but I'm getting all this stuff and why not? So that's ambition again, coming in. Somebody is offering you a very shiny object. And so yeah, I'll do it. And I did it. Okay. And then could you, and that was

29:15 enterprise level if you were selling to those big okay so enterprise AE. Enterprise AE at Gardner in a team of I think we were six people, six people very experienced all of those all of the people in my team were above 50 and I was again the only woman in the team. So I don't know what I did during those interviews that they said yes but I did not look

29:44 And my experience was not like everybody else. And when we're going to talk about the leaving story, I'm gonna share some stuff as well out of that, but it was an amazing experience. The training is next level. Luckily, I was still in the batch of people who had to travel to London and be trained at Gartner offices. I met the most clever people I've ever met. Our trainer has actually reached out to me after some time.

30:13 He was retiring and said, Laura, would you like to take my job? No, I'm in sales now. No training for me, thank you. But that type of people who both care about you but also are so clever have been at Gartner for so many years and are sharing their knowledge of sales, it's invaluable. I could have been paying for this, how good it was, seriously. So it was insanely good.

30:39 Okay, so recruiter reached out to you with an offer I guess you could review. So it was selling to top 25 sort of companies in Denmark. It was a in terms of the role profile, it was a similar role you were already in, but for 25% more salary and you got the training. So I think this is a that's another really, really good way about weighing up people to pros and cons or whatever you want to call it of weighing up like a whether a job's right. And it's like what

31:09 the way you kind of looked at it was what am I getting from it? Like worst case, if all goes tits up, what am I getting from it? Or a different, a different market, a different product, I'm learning. Plus, for the period of time that I'm there, I'm getting paid 25% more. So in your eyes, you're sort of like, what can I lose from it? If the way if the worst thing that happens is that I learn for the next three, four months and decide I don't like it, you're better than you were three or four months ago.

31:37 And I knew it's going to be hard. Just from the training, when we joined the training, the guys were saying, so the training and we had to do tests. The tests of these courses are really, really hard and not everybody passes. And if you don't pass, then you're fired. And more or less like that. And when you join, they also hype you up saying that, well, so welcome to the cohort of people who have harder time to join Gardner than people who need to join.

32:07 It's like more or less like that. It's like you are the top of the top. You're on top of the world and the people you're together with are the smartest to work with. So it's like everybody wants this. So if I have to say goodbye to that culture and the amazing group of people that I love to work at Red Hat, if that's the only thing I'm losing, I got to do it because well, culture, I'll probably find it somewhere else or it can always come back to.

32:37 Every single job I left, I was told, if you ever want to come back, the door is open. And that's also saying something about the companies I both choose to work for, but also the very hard work that you put into it, that wherever they put you in, you're going to be good. That's fine. Yeah. And you know what? I think people, they're always scared about what might happen when they move into a new role. And I think that it is a good piece of advice to say, look, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

33:07 25% bump in salary for example like like in your case the grass isn't always greener the 25% bump in salary might not be as good as it sounds but worst case as long as you haven't burnt bridges and you've You know, you've built those relationships up You can always go back to something that was working and that's not a step back It's just it's just a it's a I know a reset and I think people are always worried apprehensive of

33:36 pride maybe in taking going back somewhere because something didn't work out but you stretched you took a took an opportunity you challenge yourself that's that's the hot that's the good bit but the risk of going back to something that was working and you enjoyed is it really a risk because you knew you loved it you did well so exactly exactly no don't be afraid to do that it's you only have stuff to learn into game even though it's not too good.

34:04 So how long were you at Gartner for? Too short. So my plan was to be there at least two years. I said, it's hard, really, really hard. You're selling services and people you're collaborating with, they're amazing. They're very helpful and nice to work with, but you're selling services and paperwork and knowledge, which sometimes they can get from other communities and so on, really hard.

34:34 But it's not the sale itself that was hard for me. For me, it was the, I did not have the best manager. That's the first thing. I had amazing colleagues, but not a great manager. Plus Corona has hit, so no more going to the office, even though the office for me was 10 minutes walk from my home, but no more going to the office, no more meeting the colleagues. And that was...

35:01 That was hard, but mostly the leadership part was not the most amazing one. So with the pay, I got everything I wanted. I got the training. I've got the salary. I've got amazing people to work with, amazing network, all that kind of good stuff, but when you've got those slogans, like people join companies, leave management and so on, like, yeah, this time exactly that happened. And it was this, it sounds like that was the first time you had experienced that.

35:31 in the previous 11 years, so seven that read out and for the previous role, you had what sounded like great leadership, good managers, very good culture. So moving into this role, it kind of, it probably polarized that it wasn't as good and it wasn't right. Yeah, yeah. And somehow I could have felt it from when joining the company as well. Well, first of all, Peter said it, but it was like, Oh, come on, Peter, you would say anything. But

36:00 It's like, it's very blue collar. It's very, like very little women around you. And kind of, I've heard that Gartner culture in a lot of other countries is amazing. I met people who have been at Gartner in the US and they're very, very happy. And likely my colleagues were too, but it was just not the place for me. Okay, so.

36:26 you plan to be there roughly two years, how long was it in reality? It was a bit under one year before a recruiter called me from a startup. Let's talk about that startup because I know what I know what said startup is and some people may have guessed what said startup is but okay so roughly what age were you at this point? So this would have been what 29 ish? Yeah so it's what is it now five years ago?

36:56 Yeah, four and a half years ago, so I'm 39. There you go, I was 35, 35, 34 back then. So I bet you didn't think you'd be sharing your age on the episode. Oh, don't worry about that. And people get also, it's like, oh, really? It's like, yes, and I've got kids. Yeah, so that's also another learning for, especially if women are listening, like don't be afraid, there's nothing called security. Like just do it. If you're...

37:26 Like easy for me to say it, like just do it, but you've got nothing to lose. The only thing you've got to lose when choosing your jobs or saying yes or no to some certain things is that you did not take it seriously. Like as people are saying, you don't regret the kids that you've got. You regret the don't regret the ones that you don't. And it's the same with the jobs, the opportunities. You will not regret the opportunity you took.

37:55 you will regret the one you didn't. And no matter how old you are, no matter the salary, of course there has to be a baseline of the salary that you would never go for, more or less, more of course, more, we're in sales, always more, but especially if you are in that, I have been in that very lucky position that I've got a husband, he has a full-time job as well, we're fine. Even if I don't have a job for half a year, I'm fine.

38:23 So if I had a very shitty experience and I had to leave and find another job and I have several months gap with not being paid, it's a luxury. I know. But if you don't push yourself into those situations, then it's an earned luxury. You won't earn it. No, it's very, very good advice. I think, um, I always, I don't question, but I always, in terms of my, um,

38:51 what I've done in my career, I always find it hard when I see people who have been in the same exact company or same exact sort of job for like 20, 30 years. Because I do wonder like in terms of challenging yourself and trying something new and just the enjoyment of it and always like the day I stop learning in a role, the day I stop being challenged, that's when I leave. Because otherwise it's almost just like status. You're not doing anything. You're not learning anything. And I have to be learning.

39:21 I can definitely agree with that. And then the luxury of knowing that if something bad happens, you're kind of fine. That was a guy called Morgan Hounsell who wrote a book called The Psychology of Money. And he talks about in there that one of the most valuable things in life is being able to do what you want, when you want, with who you want, for as long as you want. And it kind of links to this whole thing of like building up this buffer financially so that...

39:48 If the only risk of you losing your job, or if you've got that like safety net of losing your job or quitting your job of, well, I've got six months. I'm fine. Like I don't have to rush into a new job. Like you said, you use the word luxury. That is, it is a luxury, but it's something that you've had to work for. And that's, um, that's a good nugget of advice of build up the buffer so that if something goes wrong or if you want to take a chance, if you want to try something that is high risk.

40:16 you've got something you can fall back on because that, that reassurance of knowing that you can pay for food and pay for rent and live for six months, even if something bad happens is very, very good in terms of like stress and anxiety and feeling comfortable and things and pushing you into those decisions. So that's yeah, two little good sort of nuggets there. Okay. Let's talk about this startup then. So a recruiter reaches out. Tell us about that story.

40:44 What does the recruiter tell you? How does he sell it? It's so funny. So the recruiter actually now sits during Dana's office and he told me the story four years later as well, what has been happening because so there is out to me. So there is the startup, some, something I did not understand at the beginning. What they were doing was so there is a startup and it has a couple of customers and they need sales to join them. So an account executive to join them. Would you like to talk?

41:14 And I was always like, I used to follow the Danish startup world and I think it was fun. Maybe I've been at a couple of meetings and so I was like, okay, let's talk because I'm bored anyway. It's Corona and maybe something cool can happen. And it was just before the summer break as well. And one thing that he said to me stuck with me and that was more or less the reason why I took the job. It was not the only reason, but it was a very hard set truth.

41:44 So I met with the founders, the founder said, okay, she's a different profile. That might be interesting because like you're not a typical startup salesperson. Like you're over 30. You have never tried startups and then do we trust to hire her? Really? What will she do? Anyway, so what he said to me saying that those guys, they want to hire you and you have a choice right now, either you stay in the lane that you're in right now.

42:14 enterprise sales, everything that you know, selling to C level, having a good salary or something that you'll never be offered again, if you continue on that route is going into a startup. Because if you are at those enterprises for four or five more years, that's it. You've got your portfolio. These are the types of companies you're going to work in the future for. And if you take this job.

42:41 then you will experience something cool, a startup that has legs, and well, you're going to change your career a little bit again. And that type of a person I am that really, really resonated. It worked. And right now, he even was saying questions like, yeah, you are kind of a very different profile.

43:03 But we really wanted you because you were so different comparing to that. They were, they were hiring two people. So they hire Sander, also the colleague who's still here and myself. It's like, you were, you two were totally different. We knew what we can expect from him because he has tried this before. You hasn't tried this and you've got like the steam to be probably able to do this. And we're not sure, but we want you. It sounds like he, he used emotion very, very well. Like the story you just told of like.

43:32 This is the last opportunity. You'll never get this chance again. Very, very good. Yeah. He was right. I mean, even if I was hiring salespeople right now and in for dream data. Now, if a 30 something year old came over to me who has been working at Gartner and IBM, I wouldn't even invite the person to the interview because this is the portfolio that you've got. This is a different speed and a different beast.

44:01 So he was absolutely right. But seriously, I'm so thankful for Christian. It was great. So that was the main thing that attracted you to it was that it was again, just completely different, a fresh start, the emotion of it, the you'll never get this check. Was that the reason or were you, like you said, sounding like you were a bit bored because of the leadership and coronavirus and all that sort of stuff? Yeah. I mean.

44:32 Given the salary, I could have continued at Gartner as well, because it's great. And you learn a lot, you're pushed a lot. It was also one of the hardest sales jobs I've done, but I really trusted the founders. So besides that, the recruiter did a great job. That was his job to do. I really trusted the founders. And for me, that different type of approach, well, I had to take the cut of 50% of my salary to join DreamData. And.

45:01 got an opportunity to take equity of the company as well. This is something I've never tried. So kind of an investment for my future. If I trust the product, if I trust the founders and I'm able to sell, then it's going to be an opportunity of my lifetime. Well, that's interesting because you don't hear that very often nowadays, but you do hear, it reminds me of those stories you read about actors who took a similar deal in terms of the film. So I think Tom Cruise

45:31 was one of them in one of his films. He took like a million or something upfront and then the rest in equity and it ended up a hundred million, I think. Star Wars was another one. I think Mark Hamill and I can't remember the other guy who plays Indiana Jones, but anyway, they all took, they made equity deals and then they ended up making hundreds of millions. But Darth Vader, the guy who played Darth Vader.

46:00 took an upfront of like 250 K, something like that, uh, no equity. And that's all he ever got paid. So that, oh God, that must've hurt. But no, that's the thing. You don't often get, uh, opportunities like that. And I think that we're, I'm not going to ruin the story, but you're still there. So you've still got it. Um, and we are, we haven't actually mentioned.

46:27 the name, but obviously we're talking about Dream Data. Those of you who know Laura will know that it's Dream Data. She's all over LinkedIn, bringing that radio DJ skill set to LinkedIn. But you're still there. So the questions that we'll ask of like, what did you learn? You're still learning. So what are the, in the five years then, give us a rundown of that five years. What was it looks like on that startup journey? Yeah. So to start with.

46:57 It was how to sell a brand that nobody knows. And coming from Gardner, it's a really freaking hard job because at Gardner taking us back a second, we had a three step sequence to get a meeting. Three step sequence. And if they did not respond positively, the fourth step was calling them and you would get a meeting. Seriously, a hundred percent shot. So, and now you're doing outbound?

47:26 that doesn't work, nobody knows you, then you're trying to take in-bounds that some people that maybe will talk with you and still don't know you. That was the hardest time ever. I could not sell for the first half a year and that was really, really hard. The good thing is we were doing it together with the founders. We were trying to figure out how are we going to sell and how are they going to buy from us.

47:52 because the enterprise deal levels of the way I used to sell don't work. So all of those impact assessments and account plans and so on. It's like, OK, forget it. It's like we need to do something that people trust us so they can buy the tool. Why would they buy it? And there was so many learnings. The first half a year was very hard, but very rewarding. And from there, once we hit that.

48:16 possibility to start selling to the companies and the first revenue started to come in, it started to get easier and easier. I remember each and every person, each and every deal I closed in the first years. It's like, yeah, you get really close to them because it's big. It's big for the company. I remember we used to drink, what was it? Was it rum? I think, yeah, we had very expensive rum at the office to drink every time we'd close a deal. And then later said, okay, now we have to stop.

48:46 Once the deals start getting a bit easier and more familiar, you just ended up pissed by 11am. Exactly. No, not that easy. But this was one of the first things. So we had to figure out how to sell. And finally we made it. We started to sell, are able to do this. We have an amazing marketing team. Stefan is great. Most of our leads are coming inbound to a startup. This is luxury.

49:16 The next thing that happened was LinkedIn. So yeah, people usually who are in marketing, especially in Europe, they know me from LinkedIn. And that's another bet that we did with Stefan, our CMO. And it was not that it was planned big, oh, let's be on LinkedIn, and let's do personal brands and so on. No, he had a brand. He was known from before. He's a known marketer in Denmark. And then we started to post on LinkedIn and figure out what works, what doesn't. So...

49:44 That was a very, very big turn for Dream Data to start growing on LinkedIn. Because we're selling to marketers, they started to learn about us. And slowly we started figuring out, should we be doing a video? Should we be starting our live podcast? Should we be, what else? Like going to events? So there were so many things. We kicked off events, going to the US to the events. We figured out, oh, we finally have 50% of our revenue from the US, so maybe we should split the teams.

50:13 Maybe there should be a Europe team and the US team. And all the time since I met my husband, we used to say, Laura, if there is an opportunity for us to try to work in the US, we take it. Whoever has that option. And then I strategically, almost two years ago now, I took the role selling to the US market, working like 12 hours per day from morning to night.

50:39 And it's finally happening now. So that's the next big thing. We're moving to the U S with dream data. That's amazing. And before we jump into, um, talking about the, the U S a little bit more. So how I first came across dream data and yourself actually was the, the whole LinkedIn social selling stuff. Um, obviously I'm in marketing. I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. I came across, um, dream data's content came across your content. And then we spoke, we did a podcast previously and we've sort of stayed in touch.

51:06 But you were, you were definitely one of the first companies brands to do that style of event marketing, as in where you would go to an event, not necessarily to have a stand, but just to be at the event, to interact with people, to build relationships with people, to shove a microphone in their face and talk to them that way. You were one of the first people and brands to do that. And then obviously a lot's happened since and people have done similar stuff. I know I, I definitely took some inspiration in the past.

51:36 So was it very, very different going from these big, established thousands of people in companies to the first one, the first of two sales reps? It was insanely different. So if you're thinking about presence on LinkedIn, when you're at those large corporations, you usually have one of the tools where they push out some content and then you have re-

52:06 repush it from your profile, that's it, and then your friends like it or something. That's it, and not used for any demand, and nothing like that. And you're kind of stepping carefully wherever you are in this enterprise, because, well, your job is to close sales, and just don't step anywhere to the side. It's not because you will not be allowed to do this, but they will, like, kind of, why?

52:32 Imagine if somebody working at Gartner created a video walking on the street or biking and video filming themselves. Everybody at the office is saying, you getting a job in journalism? It's like, you okay? What's up? It's like, why are you doing this? And here at Dream Data, nobody double questions you for anything. The other day, our CEO was saying, did you notice that nobody picked up their Vespas that we're giving to them as a gift for their Christmas?

53:00 like Lego Vespa gifts. It's like, yeah, Lars is saying, should we give away some? It's like, okay, give me a sec. I go around the office, I find all the Vespas that were not taken away home, the Lego Vespas, and I just film. So guys, this is a giveaway, we're giving it away, and just transmitting that to LinkedIn. Like these types of things are okay to do. And if people were complaining, say, don't take my Vespa.

53:28 I just did not have the time to bring it. It's like, yeah, we'll buy new ones. We're going to give it away to people. And then you are that type of a company that both keeps the momentum in the company because it's fun. Lars comes up, he loves it. It's like, oh, how about we do this? I said, how about we chill Lars? We don't do this, but then we can come up with other ideas and then we do some other stuff. That happens internally. Then we transmit it out and we work with marketers. They love that type of passion.

53:56 of something coming, oh, she's walking around the office. Oh, they're at an event doing something. So we kind of captured what marketers actually want to interact on, on LinkedIn. It's not like any other social media. It has to be professional. It has to be relevant for them and so on, but it also can be a little bit entertaining and fun. And, and if you hit that right chord, then magic, then people notice you as well. So, so that's.

54:25 That's the difference of working at an enterprise and working here. It's just so fast paced. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's two very different types of companies. And I much prefer the latter. Like I'm very, very fortunate deal front that we can do fun and entertaining and different stuff, like build a street, build a streaming platform, or record that series that we spoke about before this one, they all just, I don't know if it will happen, but hopefully it will. Um.

54:52 But some people do like the big structure, being a cog in a machine and knowing exactly what you've got to do. You can clock in at nine, clock out at five, and there's just do your job and tick the boxes. Some people prefer that. It's not for everyone, but it's way more fun on this side, way more fun. For me, sometimes it's very interesting why some people choose one or the other, because I cannot discount the work of working at big corporations. It's freaking hard, really hard.

55:22 And you're paid a lot when people are talking about those million dollar yearly pays by salespeople. This happens in enterprises and a lot of people are driven by that, but it also requires fricking amount of work, hard structured work. And I understand why people love this. And then you go to a startup, you still can make a lot of good money and have equity as well, but that type of growth and speed and being able to try things out.

55:52 happens at startups. And it's not always that you plan three steps ahead of what is going to happen with that video or with that giveaway, but that drives some different types of people as well. That's why you hire some certain types at the beginning of the journey of your startup and start to hire more stable people who probably even have enterprise experience later during the growth of your startup. Yeah, and I've done the big companies,

56:22 previously worked, one of the largest insurers in Europe and one of the largest paper recycling, you know, industrial stuff like 30,000 people globally. So I've done that. And one thing I will say is then moving into the startup world, there were so many foundational structural things that you can bring to try and make that startup a little bit more, I don't know, organized, let's say. So

56:50 It was definitely good. Like I've always said, like, definitely do some of that, go and join those big companies so you can learn how process should work and how efficient you can be. And then take that and do something fun. I think if you went straight into a startup, like 21 is a bit of a baptism of fire, like that would be that would be tough.

57:20 you've got a good structure of experienced people around you. So if you're joining a startup and it's of a similar experience, people like you are, but very ambitious, it, you will probably go very fast pace, but not learning as much as you could build a bit of foundation. So somebody to build a bit of structure around you and what good looks like. And then you can definitely shake that good and what does it actually look like, but you need some kind of foundation to grow from.

57:49 And that's probably was the reason why I moved away to Gartner from RedHead as well, because I did not have any official training and I was actually craving it to understand what are the structures that I need to put my cell into to be that type of a salesperson who follows a structure and closes a deal because it followed that type of structure. So choose a manager who can help you structuring stuff as well at the beginning. Yeah.

58:16 Very, very good piece of advice. So I can't ask you the question of why you left because you're still there. So let's talk about the U.S. So this is something that's happening right now. Talk to us. So you've been two years now, you said you've been responsible for selling to the U.S. Fast forward two years to today and 2025 is gonna be a big, big year for you. It will. 2024 was a very big year. So when reflecting back, it has been.

58:44 also a very hard year because that was the whole year when I was planning the move. That was the year when we got our CRO hired in New York. We started hiring the team. A lot of things have happened. And now when you're talking about stepping down from a role, so what happened at Dream Data, so you, when I joined this podcast, you called me a sales manager. I'm not a sales manager. I'm an account executive at Dream Data, whatever you call it, senior, whatever person who knows how to do this stuff.

59:12 So I used to have a team of people selling to the US in Europe when we split out the teams. And we used to be four people in the team struggling freaking hard end of last year to figure out how can we finally get those sales moving faster, moving more structured of what is it where we are selling to the US market, but it is not as smooth as it should be. We are able to

59:41 But it's just, we were missing that structure. And when our CRO joined, so first thing, my CEO Lars came over to me and said, Laura, you have to have a hard conversation. And I'm looking into his eyes and saying, what kind of conversation are we going to have? I know I'm not fired because they like me. I was like, that's not happening. What is it that we're gonna, so we're hiring a CRO in New York. And it's kind of a big thing for you because you own the US market.

01:00:09 So we'll have to figure out how we're going to be selling to the US and growing there because it's a very big market for us. And my eyes were just shining. So I crossed my hands and I said, Lars, is it an American? He said, yes. I said, yes, please bring it on because it's a person who tried to move, not tried, who moved several companies from selling only to Europe, to the US. He's joining us to structure it all.

01:00:36 of how are we selling. So now fast forward more than half a year, Nick has joined us, has been the freaking amazing experience. So he has already hired several people in New York into the sales team. I'm in his team right now. So I used to be the manager, but it does not make sense. I'm here. I still have the ambition to do that. I really want to be a sales leader, but I'm best served at this position right now to help the company grow by bringing in clients.

01:01:03 I have enough over my head by moving to the US. And what happens next when I'm there? Well, there are plans on paper, but then we're going to figure it out. So that's also the fun of being in a startup. And I think also my mindset of not following that direct path of what's career, because I could have been discouraged because Lars was very worried. I could see that in his face. I thought I was like, it looked in his face as if I'm fired, but I was not. It's like.

01:01:33 Why are you worried? We're going to grow and that's the coolest thing of it all because I'm a freaking good salesperson. So if I'm just going to focus on the sales, that's fine. I've got a lot of stuff doing on LinkedIn. Is that something we still wanna do? Oh yes, we wanna do that still. Okay, great. Then I'm moving to the yes, great. Which also means that a part of my ambition is also sold and I'm getting an amazing experience manager. So now I'm in that situation where I spoke about the junior salesperson joining a startup.

01:02:03 with a structured manager, I finally have one. So he is a machine. Nick, I've never had a manager who exactly know what needs to be done every single step of the way, or at least it seems like that. And we are following that path together and growing our US presence. When he joined, I said, Nick, it's freaking hard to sell to the US from here. It's like we're working 12 hours per day. And it's like, it's really hard seeing.

01:02:31 Hold tight. In the coming half a year, instead of 40% of the revenue coming from the US, we're going to grow really fast. I can't promise you how much, but we're going to surpass what Europe team is doing, and it's going to be the biggest gross motor of all of us in the whole company. And I'm still keeping my chair tight because it's happening and it's insane.

01:02:56 Do you know what, hearing you talk about that with such excitement and the, it's refreshing because I think, like you said, logically that linear career journey, you were a sales manager, but you've gone back to AE, right? People would see that as like a backward step. I've gone from sales manager to AE, whereas you've just like listed out with such excitement of like, this is great. This is great.

01:03:22 Okay, fine. I've changed to an AE, but we got plans on papers. Exciting. Look at all this structure. That's, I think people have got to try and reframe their outlook on what a career is, right? A career isn't the, we call it the career ladder. It's not this like step, step, step, step. It's, it's snakes and ladders. It's a ladder up and then you slip back down or it's a ladder up and then you go actually, you know what? That wasn't quite the right ladder for me. And I think the more comfortable people get with this

01:03:51 with this whole career journey being actually a bit all over the place. And you never really know what's going to happen in two years. But the way you look at it is as long as you've got these, like these positive signals, like a marketer will look for positive signals of we're going in the right direction. We haven't reached there yet, but we've got these little positive nuggets. You've listed those positive nuggets of I've got the structure. I'm able to tick off moving to the U S I'm learning. Oh my God, look at all this growth. We've got stuff on paper. Exciting, exciting, exciting, exciting. So.

01:04:21 if you reframe it and just, yeah, look at like the total package of what you're going to get as an individual in terms of growth, development, happiness, uh, interest, excitement, fun. That's a very, very good way of looking at things. And I'm, um, I, I've, this is the first time we've spoken about the, the sort of behind the scenes of what, how it came to be and all that sort of stuff. Um, and that's very, very exciting. And so when is the

01:04:49 the move happening? When is that big date for you? It's the first of February. Everything is falling into places on the first of February. So we're moving, got the tickets or rented our apartment here. We're renting an apartment over there. What I'm mostly excited about, there are a couple of things of what you've reflected on. So the career as such as a ladder for me, at least it doesn't matter. As long as I'm feeling

01:05:18 that I'm both contributing to a company, but I'm enjoying it as well. I can see the growth. I'm enjoying it and earning a good salary. I'm fine. Because if you're working with the people that you really like for the company right now in this position is what can I do that benefits the company? The most I'm invested. Yes, I've got equity. So I want those millions out, you know? So it means that.

01:05:47 Well, if I need to be an AE right now and still earn a very good salary, usually AEs earn a better salary than managers. Another thing very important to remember, your salary, you're enjoying to be in the company, you're valued. We're good. Seriously. You're having a good time. You're coming back happy or you're working really hard, but you know why you're doing that it's not only because of the money, because some certain growth, your experiences and so on.

01:06:16 That is fantastic. But what I'm looking forward to in the U.S. is to experience the actual sales in the U.S. because these last two years have been so hard, insanely hard, seriously, because we look in each other's eyes when we're not able to close a deal with our CEO or CMO. It's like, what could we do different? And none of us know. That's the hardest part.

01:06:42 But now when we see this kind of a growth path and we know every time why we lose or we win, we have exactly like outline the plan, what needs to be done in each and every deal if this happens and that happens and so on. So that kind of strategic growth and finally being in the country of sales, that excites me crazy much. Yeah, I do know. And we hear so many stories about the US sales market over here in the EU.

01:07:12 Um, probably a lot of them bad, but I bet it's, yeah, it's going to be quite interesting being on the other side of the pond and actually seeing what the realities of it are. Okay. So we've got, um, we've got about 10 minutes left in our, um, in our allotted time, so we'll do the quick fire sort of round up questions, um, to summarize. So top three tips, we've called it climbing the career ladder, but top three tips for, let's say developing in your career rather than climbing the ladder.

01:07:41 because we've just discussed, it's not all about this linear climb. So top three tips in developing in your career.

01:07:51 Choose hard, like choose hard works that you need to do. And maybe even you don't think that you can actually do it, but just take it. Next thing, learn in the job or before the job or choose a manager who can help you learn to become good at what you have chosen. Very, very important. And for me, this is a personal one as well. Follow your energy. When you're back home,

01:08:19 If you feel that you've got a lot of energy and steam to give more, you're ready. Wake up in the morning. I'm ready to go. I want to do this again. Stay because this is where you're giving the most of yourself to the company as well. So if you're choosing the hard jobs, if you're learning in it, and you're still having the energy every single day to wake up and do either over and over again, or do a different thing, but trying it out. The salary.

01:08:50 I did choose salaries at some of the companies I've joined. I do enjoy that salespeople are so highly paid. But when I think back, it's never the salary that I reflect back and have the shiny eyes about thinking about, let's say, Red Hat or CSE, some of those companies. I always remember either the learnings or the experiences that we have built something together. So choose by that. The salary will come. Everybody will pay as well for your job.

01:09:19 But of course ask for it. Like don't wait for somebody to give it to you. Push, choose hard, choose the hard part. That's a nice piece of hindsight actually. And it's hindsight or retrospect. You can only really sit there and say it once you've actually lived those experiences and then you can look back and go, do you know what? It wasn't money that made it a highlight role. It was the culture, it was the people. So for those who are...

01:09:46 fresh out of college or university or early on in their careers listening. Money isn't everything. And this is probably, uh, I, like every single episode that seems to have come out. Money isn't everything. The money will come. Um, as Laura said, so money isn't everything. That's a great piece of advice. Um, any career regrets today?

01:10:07 No, none, absolutely none. The only career regret sometimes in the late evenings that I'm having is that am I spending enough time with my kids? That's the only thing that hits me once in a while, especially if my daughters are coming into our workroom and it's like done yet, 7 PM we had the dinner already, these are the only regrets that I'm feeling.

01:10:36 But at the same time, I don't even think that those are regrets. I'm giving away to my kids during the weekends, during the evenings and so on. I'm doing the best I can and I hope that one day when they become big, they have had an example of a working mom who was enjoying her work. It was not just the work for the sake of money, but also for the enjoyment of it, for the life fulfillment kind of a way. So hopefully it's not a regret.

01:11:05 but this is what I sometimes deep in myself think about. No, that's good. And it's good, like you said, you've got those structured times and if it's purely out of enjoyment, they will see over time that inner, like you said, that inner enjoyment of it. You're not ball and chain tied to the desk, it's enjoyment and it's challenge and it's learning. And that's a great thing to show and it's a great environment to sort of bring kids up in as well. So what is the, well, actually,

01:11:34 Rhetorical question, what is the next step in your career ladder? So that is moving to the US, which I'm very, very excited to follow on on LinkedIn. And okay, last question we can do. So what is your what's the end goal? What what like do you have this title, this position, this place, the salary? What is the end goal?

01:12:00 So there is an amount of the end goal for me and my husband, which is like, we're climbing that ladder, setting the money in the right places and so on. So there is a money goal, but it's not in terms of salary, but how do you position your money in the right places? There is that. And in addition to that, I will always be in revenue positions, which means that either I am working in a company in sales.

01:12:27 There's another thing that we've not spoke about at all. I have been asked and suggested to move into marketing, but it's like, no, I want to choose hard because that's I want to go into the roles that I find hard. Marketing for me. Well, marketing is not hard enough for you, is it? It is hard, but kind of I feel that. How can I put that? I feel that I can easily be good at marketing and that's

01:12:57 not challenging enough. And if I become really good at sales, then combining the two would be the beautiful mix. If I chose marketing right now, I haven't emptied out the sales part yet to become as good as I think that I can be. It's freaking hard, but I'm still choosing hard. So it will be revenue positions at a company or advising companies later on. So it really depends where the...

01:13:27 the path follows me as well. Cause if I've emptied out sales and marketing, then probably some other companies will want to have that kind of experience either as advisory or fractional. We'll figure out what the future brings, but it's like, I don't know, 10 years from now or something. Right now it's the U.S., it's sales, and we'll see what it brings. It's fine, it's fine. I'll take it that marketing is too easy for you.

01:13:53 I also believe that sales would be too easy for me. I think I think I'd be good in sales. So, well, I appreciate you jumping on. We are pretty much perfectly coming up to the end of the time slot, which has brought us to the end of the conversation. Almost like it almost as if it was planned. I'm super, super excited to follow your move across to America and dream data's journey in doubling down on that market and growing.

01:14:23 That's going to be really, really exciting. So just appreciate you jumping on and sharing some of those career highlights and insights and tips and tricks for people. Hopefully those listening have learned something. Um, there was loads of really, really nice advice in there. Um, and honest, uh, stories about the realities of, of career journeys and things. So I think it's been a brilliant episode. So thank you for jumping on. Thank you so much, Jamie. It was a pleasure.

01:14:49 And for those listening, watching, reading the transcript, please subscribe. There will be plenty more episodes coming your way. This will this will actually go out after you've moved to the US. And this will be in season one. Season two is coming. So please subscribe, tune in, and we will catch you in the next episode.