00:03 Hello and welcome to another episode of the revenue career ladder podcast where we dive deep into the career journeys of revenue focused professionals to give you real insights actionable tips and maybe even a little reassurance that the journey is yours to define in this episode. I'm joined by my father Johansson and we're going to be chatting about your journey from travel sales agent to head of business development, which is quite a journey. So I'm interested. I'm interested about this one. I think.

00:32 travel, that's going to have some probably some very, very interesting stories as well. The industry in general, depending on when you worked in the industry as well and where it was, which we all dive into. But without further ado, how are you, Mifelda? I'm good. How are you, Jamie? Super nice to meet you. Yeah, I'm good. People will be tuning into this at some point in spring, I'd imagine in terms of when we're planning for it to go live. But we're recording this the first week back in January. So it's still that bit of a...

01:01 a lull between, well, the first week lull of it's not quite the first full week. Half the business still isn't back in. So it's, it's, it's nice and quiet. The weather's good. Um, so I'm good. I can't complain. Nice. Yeah. The same here. Uh, I think today is the last day of, uh, chilled work and I think next week it will start.

01:22 start again, but it is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I think we've got to make the most of the rest of today and have a very, very chilled weekend before it really 2025 properly begins next week. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So tell me, we always start these discussions with first ever job. So first ever job, talk to me about travel sales agent. Yeah. I was around 20, 21 years old. I was living in the United States.

01:52 I'm originally from Portugal and I did my master in Florida. And then once you have F1 visa, which is a studying visa, you can upgrade to working visa for a year after your studies. And I did that. And I didn't have any work experience besides working here and there in the university. So it was really hard for me to find a job even selling tickets, something really easy.

02:21 And also like I had the visa, you know, so they're like, you know what, we can find other people with more experience, with no visas. And the only ones who gave me a job was a hundred percent commission job, so it was not risky for them, you know. So it's like, you know, if she doesn't sell, we are not paying her salary anyway.

02:47 or health insurance. So there was no risk for them. I was not very thrilled, I have to say, you know, because, you know, I never had the dream of working in sales. It didn't even cross my mind, you know, so it never crossed my mind working in sales. I was not very happy about

03:14 The main reason why I'm not getting a job is because I don't have job experience. So I'm going to, you know, just do this for a couple of months. And if it's horrible, at least I can apply already with something on my CV. But it was not horrible. It was actually really, really cool. So if we just take a quick step back to the rationale, how come you decided to go to university in Florida then? Um, I, so I did.

03:43 Business Administration in Portugal, that's my bachelor's management. And my university at the time, they had like a partnership with UCF, University of Central Florida. And I want to do my master's abroad and I would and when I mean abroad, I mean, even out of Europe. I've done a summer school before in South Korea, but I really wanted to live somewhere else. That's not Europe. And basically was an easy

04:11 easy way, you know, it sounded interesting, the masters, I got a scholarship through my university. So it was also a kind of cheap way to do this. So was, yeah, I didn't just Florida, Florida chose me. It's not it's not a bad place to end up doing your masters. I have a colleague that I used to work with my previous company decided to move out to Tampa.

04:36 a couple of years ago with the company at the time and he's just basically decided to stay out there. And he can't see himself coming back at least not long term anyway, like he'll pop back for the old Christmas here and there. But yeah, apart from that. So you mentioned you had a couple of odd little jobs here and there at university. What are we talking just like in bars, retail, what sort of stuff?

05:06 for PhD students, giving private lessons here and there, you know, this kind of jobs. No, I was never a barista kind of person. I'm very sloppy. I drop everything. So I never dared to work in a restaurant because it's too difficult for me. Okay. I'm just trying to piece together the aptitude for sales further down the line and like the experience and stuff. So.

05:33 Okay. So you, you didn't think you would enjoy it or you didn't think it'd be any good. And then you ended up realizing that the fact that it was a hundred percent commission job was actually the perfect start to your career. And what, why was that? Um, because I mean, nothing scarier than that. Right. So any job offer it's after that is, is, is an easier offer. Right. So even if it's base plus commission.

05:57 it's still safer than 100% commission or even a salary. You know, so I realized it was a fantastic start exactly because of that. Nothing else that came after was as scary as that. So for me, I always faced challenges with sense of humor because I was like, you know what? I've done 100% commission.

06:24 job, like, you know, so, you know, I'm used to finish the week, as obviously in the States, we are paid bi weekly, and working six days a week, without making nothing, anything like zero, and start thinking, next week, I really, really have to, because, you know, I have a rent to pay and I have groceries to pay. So, yeah, so I started like that. So

06:54 everything else in my career was so much easier. So yeah, I think we will call that a baptism of fire. I think that's it. Yeah, it's very much a case of we have the same expression in Portuguese. Yeah, it's basically we're not sure if you can swim, but we're just going to throw you in there or you threw yourself in there because of the situation you're in, which speaks to the level of challenge and pain that you can put yourself through in order to

07:23 achieve something which is a very, very good trait in sales, a much needed trait in sales. So you touched on the fact that you got a year working visa. So did you do this? Was this for a year? Was it? So it was for about six months. And then I got a better offer by the competitor. So I was doing exactly the same thing for another company, but it was based plus commission.

07:52 and health insurance. So the main reason for me was not so much the base post commission, which is nicer. I'm not saying that that was not attractive, but for me it was more the health insurance kind of thing because in the States that's crucial and the first one didn't pay me that. So I've worked the whole year in this kind of business, doing this kind of job, but not 100% commission sales the whole time. But again,

08:19 The reason that I changed was not because I was not making a living. I was still paying my bills with the hundred percent commission job was really the health insurance. Okay. So you did that for six months and then, uh, I take it the next, uh, role we're going to talk about is that the, is that the next role on, on the ladder or are we, are we jumping forward? We are like, we are jumping because I didn't mention this one because it's basically the same thing. So I don't think I.

08:48 I was up in the ladder because, okay, yes, it's safer, but in terms of career, I was in the same level. The next, let's say, career step was when my visa expired and I had to come back to Europe. I didn't want to go back to Portugal because salaries are really low in Portugal. I was like, I don't feel like making at the time 500 euros a month.

09:17 And I was like, Germany, you know, I have German roots. So I would like to learn German. I, the salaries are good. So let me, let me go and try. And I was applying to a lot of different companies in different cities in Germany. I didn't have a preference because I didn't have friends or, you know, like.

09:44 I was like, I don't care, I will take the first city that offers me a job. That was Berlin. For obvious reasons, because in Berlin you don't really need German that much, at least to work. Whereas in other cities like Munich, Hamburg, it's harder to get a job without German language. So in Berlin, a lot of people don't speak German. So I got a job. And because I was doing this...

10:11 These sales jobs in the States were in the tourism industry. So I stayed in the industry, not in a sales job, but in a more operations job. So I think these I can consider like the next step in my career because I had more responsibility. I was more in a managerial organizational position. So I would say that that's for me.

10:40 the next step on my career letter. Okay. So we did, we did one year in travel industry, a couple of different jobs, um, in, uh, the U S Florida. Uh, and then you came to the end of your year long visa, at which point you are essentially, uh, well, could you have got an extension or was it a case of you have to go back to Europe? I had to, um, because I would have to get sponsored by a company. Right. Yep. Fine.

11:07 Um, okay. So yeah, that's, that's very, very difficult. And I only know that because of the couple of people I know who have gone over there and had to find it and things and, uh, lost the job and have to find stuff again. And, um, okay. So you came, um, back and you decided on Germany. Um, and then you stuck in the same industry. So what sort of year was this? Cause I'm thinking tourism, COVID. I'm just trying to, was it way before? Right.

11:37 I'm not that young anymore. Yeah, no, that was almost 10 years before COVID. No, yeah, no. So I was in the tourism, this was when I came back to Europe, 2014. So yeah, way before COVID. So I still worked a couple of years in tourism. But I also I moved to tech before COVID as well, right? So

12:05 So I was a couple of years in the tourism industry, in the operational side of it. And then I enjoyed it. I mean, you know, working in hospitality is something else. You know, anyone who works in hospitality knows what I'm talking about. You see a lot of crazy stuff, you know. It's very hectic. But it's fun. I really enjoyed it.

12:34 But I wanted to learn something else. So by then I did a couple of jobs in the tourism industry. And I felt I didn't know much about tech. I felt now I knew. I was never much into tech. So I would never go learn about it in my free time. That's on my free time I rather...

13:01 learn about music or literature or arts or history or politics, those are things that interest me way more than tech. So I was like, okay, I really need to understand this because this is the future. I don't think I can move up the career ladder without having at least an understanding of technology and what it entails and the industry and everything.

13:27 So you kind of you kind of had this foresight of thinking you believe that the industry was going towards tech and that would be the future of where you where you felt you would develop in your career. So you Yeah, that's interesting. So I'll say that's probably the first time we've come across that.

13:49 that reason for a career move to actually say, right, I believe the market's going this way. So I'm going to go into this industry with the expectation of that's the best place to develop. Yeah, that's interesting. How long were you the job in Berlin, operations manager in travel? How long were you in that role for? So I've done different jobs in that company. So I was in the same company. I was four years there. But in these four years, I've done from

14:19 you know, pop crawl guides to supervisor, to manager, to executive assistant, to events, corporate events organizer. So like, so in these four years I've done different roles. The main one being operations manager. So yes, so four years in that company doing different, different stuff.

14:45 Now for four years doing multiple different roles, you're going to have learned a lot. So take us through some of the key development areas, the key learnings you had in that four year period. Because that is four years in the same company. It's relatively rare nowadays for people to stay first. I know you had different roles, but to stay in the same company is quite rare. So what did you learn in that period? So as you mentioned, it's rare.

15:14 But because I've done different things, I think that's why I stayed as well long, because I was learning all the time. So I've learned really a lot, especially on the process sides, because everything is so insane and at the same time, and you cannot control a lot of things, and you need to solve issues in a very short amount of time and sometimes several issues at a time.

15:42 you really need to have good processes. And that's for me, one of my biggest learnings that I take to sales later on. Also, the other thing that's really important is it doesn't matter if you are on the right side or in the wrong side, you know, if the customer feels that they are in the right side, even though that's not true, you still, you know, you still get to complain or trip advisor or you still lose the business.

16:12 So you really need to, you know, to try to juggle that. So, you know, customer expectations with your product and what you offer. Um, and, um, and also I would say that because everything it's so, uh, fast, you, you really need to be comfortable with that pace. Uh, you need to be comfortable with, uh, with done being

16:42 better than perfect and, and prioritize, right? So it's like, okay, out of the 10 things that I need to solve in 10 seconds, which are the ones that are really important, you know, that's our business critical. So I think it's, yeah, I think that's the, I would say the three learnings that I, that I had to do or that I learned throughout these years.

17:12 it hospitality or whatever the travel is probably a level a step above hospitality in the anger and emotion that you will have had to have dealt with. We've all been in that situation where we're late to the airport, there's traffic, something didn't quite pan out with travel arrangements and the person that you always take it out on is the agent in front of you, the person who is a representative of the company.

17:39 And that's in terms of I think you mentioned in your in your notes, the phrase thick skin. So that's okay. So we've picked up on throwing yourself in the deep end. And then, you know, putting yourself in an industry or at least being in an industry where you need thick skin, both of which are very, very good skills adaptations, whatever you want to call them, to then move into sales. Yeah.

18:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think developing a thick skin and what you mentioned, because I was on the side of people getting angry at me without being my fault, I think it also made me a better person, right? So I never take out on people if that's not their fault, you know, if they're being rude to me, that's a different story. But if I see that it's completely out of their control.

18:38 I would never ever be rude to anyone. But I also think that I have that understanding because I've been there, you know? And I think a lot of people should go through that experience. You know, I think hospitality or whatever can be as a supervisor of the tours like myself, but also bartending, restaurants, whatever.

19:08 that a lot of crazy stuff happened outside of your control. And you doing your best juggling 20,000 things at the same time and people could you know, it could have been even worse, but people don't realize that the customer doesn't realize that. And instead of being thankful, because he could have been worse, they are treating you like, sorry, like shit. Like, that's the word. And, and I'm

19:37 It was a really a lie. Like it was, I think that made me a much better person because if it's clearly not the person's fault, I'm I always have a smile even if I'm stressed, like, because it's, they don't, they are not paid to deal with my anger, you know, they're paid to solve as much as they can. My, you know, my issues or the issues that arose, but they are

20:06 They're not my, you know, my mother or, you know, or they're not my babysitter. So I, but, but again, I think I've learned that because I've been there. I was going to say it's almost as if to, uh, during like sales trading, they should just throw you in as a travel agent for a week, like, uh, in the UK, uh, as a place called, um, butlins. And I've got this image in my head of putting, um, new.

20:34 sort of junior salespeople into a place like butlins for a week and making them host tours and like, uh, I don't know, sort of just general, like ticket stuff. Um, in the same way as you quite, you often hear people talk about, um, door to door sales being very, very challenging because you're literally, that is the oldest most traditional form of cold calling. You're like,

20:57 you're knocking on someone's door as cold as cold as it gets. And again, that's another one of those things where I think if you are forced to do it for a week, you would have much more appreciation for the job that you do have. And appreciation for like you said, the person on the other end. So there should be some sort of crash course where you have to do that. Okay, so you did that for four years, you had the foresight to think that the future of future in terms of where the money was going to be and where

21:25 the best growth for you, development for you as an individual was going to be in tech. So what was the, what was the first job that you managed to, or you chose or managed to get in, uh, in tech? Um, I, so I was already by then quite high in the hierarchy of the company. Um, but because I was going to a new industry, I knew I had to take a step down because I really didn't know anything. Um,

21:55 So I took a business development rep job, which again, is very similar to my first jobs in the States. Because I also, my sales job in the States was also sending people to resorts, which is also prospection. So business development is also prospecting. And that's how I managed to get the job in tech with no previous experience in tech. And I think it also helped because

22:24 This was almost two years before COVID. So the tech world was still booming and there was a huge need for especially BDRs. I think that after the tech crush in 2022, companies they prefer experiments BDRs or it's not as easy with the experience I had at the time to start as a BDR.

22:53 But at the time there was a huge need and I already spoke German by then. And it's really hard to find good sales reps who are German speaking, even if they're not native. So I think that also helped me. I was speaking German fluently. I did well in the interview. I had previous sales experience, even though it was not in tech. And there was a huge need for, you know, these, these kinds of rules. So that's how I got into tech.

23:23 Um, and, uh, and again, um, it was, I was again in a very uncomfortable situation because I was trying to speak to CTOs, heads of infrastructure, uh, heads of quality assurance. So extremely technical roles. I had zero technical knowledge. I didn't understand tech as a whole.

23:48 And suddenly I need to generate interest from these people. And I was like, oh God, I'm again in an extremely difficult situation. So that's how I started in tech, but I never left since then. So I'm still here. And I went back to the same personas now that I've started at Uplodoc a couple of months ago, but we still go there. We still have more roles to go.

24:17 So, and how come you decided that in the move to tech, you wanted to go back to sales? So how did you know it was sales that you kind of felt was the right move? It was the easiest one in the sense that I could never be product manager if I don't even understand tech, right? I could maybe be a junior project manager now because I have knowledge. But at the time I was like, OK, from the tech roles.

24:45 Which one will take me? Not technical customer success, maybe less technical roles, yes. But it's like either customer service or customer support that's not very technical or sales. Like the other roles, I don't have the knowledge. They will never pick me. So it was more like, okay, I'm qualified enough to do the job, but also between sales and customer support.

25:14 I'm not a customer support kind of person. And I want to move away from that because I've worked in hospitality enough. I'm like, I don't want to deal with customer support. So I prefer selling. I've done sales. I've done customer service. I prefer, I prefer sales like by far. So that was like, the decision was like, okay, out of the jobs that I can actually perform, which ones do I like best? And definitely by far sales.

25:43 It's interesting because there's lots of different reasons people give for choosing a career. And with respect to this series, there's a lot of different reasons people give for falling into sales or choosing sales. And on the whole, people don't necessarily graduate thinking, I want to be in sales. Like that. My aspirations are to be a sales rep.

26:13 It doesn't seem to be that common, maybe more so in the next five to 10 years. The salaries can be very, very good, but it's, yeah, it's interesting in terms of your honesty of what realistically, what is the, what are the jobs I can get to get into tech and go from there? And you know, you ended up enjoying it. So what was the, um, in terms of the company, what were you, what were you selling? The first one we were selling software testing.

26:41 So testing to see if there were bugs, if the UX is good, if the payments go through. So making sure the apps would work exactly as they should. This was kind of an extension of the internal quality assurance team. So yeah, so that was the product. And I remember, obviously my German now is fluent, but still not my native language. And I remember to prepare myself.

27:10 the role. I got already the job. I had, I would start in a month and I was like, okay, I don't understand anything about tech by then, right? Maybe I should prepare myself in order to, you know, do a better job when I start, you know, and to be a bit more prepared. So I asked them like...

27:34 What can I read or watch before to make sure that I don't start from 0000? And they, they, they, they recommended me this book that's technical, uh, very technical software testing in German. And I read the book. I read the book until the end before starting, but I was like, I'm not sure if I'll be able to do this, but I'm.

28:04 I'll see and I'll manage, you know, it's not the first or the second or the third time that I put myself in a difficult situation. So this is just another one. And then it comes back to what I mentioned at the beginning. I've done a hundred percent self-commissioned job. This cannot be worse. This cannot be more stressful, right? So I'll manage. That's why a lot of times in my life when I find myself in a...

28:32 challenging situations, I always go back to come on, even a hundred percent commission job like this will be fine. So yeah. And again, it was fine. Yeah. I was going to the, there's that saying, isn't it? Like do something hard early in the day or do something hard as soon as you wake up. And it's the same sort of thing. You did something very, very hard early on in your career and you can reference that as a point of, well, I've done hard. So this will be easiest. Is it.

28:57 Exactly the same thing. You go for a five kilometer run and minus four at 5 a.m. You've started your day with something hard. The rest of the day is pretty, pretty chill. It's not, it's nice and warm. It's nice and comfortable. You don't have to run 5k. Everything seems easier. So that's, yeah, it speaks to that, uh, getting comfortable with doing something hard and then referencing that. Um, okay. So in terms of that, that BD role, then say how long were you in that BD role? Um,

29:27 I would say almost two years or two years. But again, in that time period, I started as business development, then I went to the senior role going enterprise, and then I was team lead. So again, I was in the company for, I would say around two years, but within these two years, I've done several things all in the sales side.

29:55 But I was progressing in the role. So you managed to go from BD to a more enterprise role and then to a team lead. Did you say? So yeah, I was prospecting, but I was already doing some team lead tasks. So did that within two years. So it sounds like it went well in terms of like sales. I'm assuming hitting targets. And yeah, I never missed target. So.

30:25 Okay, so it was your first foray into tech and into a sales role of this type. So in two years, you had two ish promotions, very, very successful, had a good amount of success. So in terms of what you learned, obviously you read the German book about tech. So you learn- Not sure how much that helped me, but- Yeah, confused you more than anything. Yeah. So you learned a lot about the-

30:55 the world of tech and I guess how to sell in tech. But describe the two years in terms of what you came away from that role with that you didn't have before you went into it. Yeah, well, first, the huge understanding of technology as a whole and all of the bits and bytes of tech and SAS and the different roles as to like how things work. But also like I'm...

31:27 I kind of used my weakness in my favor in the sense that, yes, I started off like, I don't understand anything what's going on here. And the company at the time, thank God, they sending SDRs to conferences. And I was in the first, like when I was chatting to people here and there.

31:50 I was, I was on it. I was like, so what does, how does it work and how is like that and why is that important? And sometimes I may look like a fool, but you know, I was like, I need to learn as fast as I can. Um, and also I realized that. Especially when I start to understand a bit better, like, you know, why our product is good and why, what's the value and et cetera.

32:17 And I already could start a conversation in a conference when they start to get technical. I said, that's a great question. Let me connect with my colleague because I don't have the answer for you. And that's basically my job. My job was to book meetings anyway. So, so I found that not knowing sometimes was actually good for that role specifically. And I was able to, you know, book meetings also because of that.

32:43 while learning on the side and trying to understand and iterate and on the go as well. And every week, every conference would get a bit better and a bit better and a bit better. And so that was the one of the things that you know really really helped me actually be successful. I'm very thankful that I didn't start this role during COVID with no conferences.

33:13 I think the conferences and being able to speak to the people face to face, um, then helped me then crafting better emails and have a better understanding of what good prospecting looks like. And, um, and then I also noticed a lot of, cause you know, I've done operations before and I was leading teams before I've trained people before. And I've noticed that.

33:38 A lot of companies they don't onboard and train people properly, unfortunately it's a reality. So I was trying to do an introspection of like, okay, if someone starts, what are the things that I wish someone had taught me or told me from the beginning? What could have like accelerated my knowledge that I had to find out here and there? What, you know, maybe someone would have taught me properly in the first weeks.

34:08 I didn't need, I don't know, three or four months to get the same, you know, amount of information. So, uh, in that regard, um, that's when I was team lead, I was building, you know, onboarding from scratch, training people from scratch. And, uh, and that's like, well, that's what, what got me the team lead role as well. So my previous experience, but also me coming from, uh, ignorant, the completely ignorant face to knowing.

34:37 And understanding, okay, what, what are the things that people really need to know? And what I would have liked to know at the time. And that really, really, really helped me. So I kind of turned my, my weaknesses, I kind of worked around them and they, I made them work for me at the time. Yeah. So like we said, so two ish promotions in two years going very, very well in a team lead sort of position. So what?

35:07 Why did you leave if things were going so well? Well, first, at the time it was already COVID. So I have to say that I was, me and my team, we were working insanely during COVID because the targets were increased. We had no conferences. So we had more obstacles, less resources.

35:33 And so we working a lot, a lot, a lot. So I was kind of burned out by the end of it. I was like, I'm so, so, so tired. This was one of the reasons why I was like, I cannot do this anymore. I know I, I need a new product, a new challenge, because I'm completely burned out from this. But as well, there was then the position to apply to met from team lead to manager and I didn't get it. And I was like, okay. If I can not.

36:03 grow in my career ladder anymore it's time to go. I'm burned out so I'm not enjoying this anymore and I didn't get what I think at the time was deserved and I still think I should have gotten the position so I like it's time to go and I left so that's the reasons why. Yeah I think first and foremost like in its simplest form if you're not

36:30 or at the base level, if you're not enjoying the role you're in, that's probably the clearest sign of it's, it's not the right role layer on top of that. If you're not being challenged and you're not learning, then you're not growing. So you're stagnating in your career. Combine those two. Um, and then I guess the, the icing on top or the cherry on top, um, was that you didn't get the role that you felt you deserved. So two ish years in a role. It's a good stint. It's more than a year. It's anything.

36:56 In the realms, I would say of like two to three years is a good, it's a good stint, um, it shows that you can, um, you've been through the cycle of a role a couple of times. So what was the, what was the next step? What did you want from the next role? How did you come across it? Um, so I was looking for the next role, which I would like to be again, team lead business development, management, business development, something or something.

37:25 along the sales enablement because at the time I was already, I trained my sales myself, I did a John Barrows courses, I was already training and onboarding my team. So I was like something in those lines, but also I wanted to, to make a bigger impact because I felt as well that, you know, I, I've, I've done a good job at the time I've helped a lot of my colleagues and that didn't turn out. They didn't.

37:54 count for me to get promoted. And I was like, okay, being in, and we will talk about it later, but like, just being great at your job, it doesn't equal a promotion. So, so at all, at all. So, so that was also a tough learning, but an important one, because once you realize that, then you can start, you know, going up and up because you take control of your career.

38:22 So I've learned that and I was like, okay, let me then apply to things I really want. I have the experience, I have the knowledge, I have the CV. And I want to make a proper impact. And I thought in a smaller company, they need you more than in a bigger company. They need your expertise more than in bigger companies. And probably you're going to be way more, it's going to be more rewarding.

38:51 So I joined at the time a pre-seed startup that was also, they also had a product that I really believed in because it talked to my pain, which was they trying to improve the onboarding and the sales training to companies. And I didn't have proper onboarding, proper training. I was trying to do that as a team lead. And I was like, okay, this.

39:19 Startup has the mission, I believe. I know exactly the pain. It's going to be super easy for me to talk to customers and prospects because I feel them. I can help them because I've done myself training and onboarding. And it's, I really liked the CEO, the founder, which is important in such a small environment. And I was like, you know, this, this, this sounds perfect to me. And was this still in Berlin? Yeah.

39:49 I still live in Berlin even now. Nice. And what, what was the title of the job that you moved to? Again, I started as sales enablement consultant because they hired me to consult on their clients on training and boardings because we were offering the platform, the SAS, it was a SAS platform, but also they want to have a consultant to help them on board and train and, and I was hired for that. So I really enjoyed the job. Uh, but then as the, the, the, the startup.

40:18 got funded, we have got the seed round funding, we start hiring. And again, I had previously the experience of managing teams in tourism. And also my previous role, one thing leads to the other. And I ended up leading three departments, the customer success, marketing, and business development, and doing the whole hiring and training and managing. And.

40:45 So I started sales enablement consultant. I went to customer success and business development. And then once I added marketing on top of it, I went to director of growth because I was taking basically the whole revenue department underneath me. And this was a time span of three and a half years from the beginning until the end.

41:05 No, you, you, you touched on a couple of well-known stories, uh, of the startup world in terms of having to wear multiple different hats. So, uh, those listening who have worked in a startup will appreciate, uh, this. Those who haven't worked in a startup, essentially you will do the job. Uh, you'll do your job title, but you'll also do like one, two, three, four, five other jobs as well, because they're just simply isn't enough people. There aren't enough people.

41:35 do all of the jobs, so someone has to pick it up. And it's, it's good and bad for the same reason. It's great because you get loads of experience, you're always busy and you become a more rounded professional. It's bad because you're too busy. You're doing jobs that you're not necessarily the way you want. Yeah, you're not necessarily qualified for the job. And because you're doing five different jobs, the old you know, spread too thinly.

42:03 effect comes, comes into it. So, okay. Then, so you went in as a sales enablement consultant, you moved over to a head up business development, um, and customer success. You did that, um, for a couple of years, and then you moved into director of growth looking after basically, uh, marketing and sales. Exactly. So I basically, I added marketing to the equation, which makes me growth, you know.

42:31 Like that's the word that summarizes like everything. So, yep. Um, and is it, is exactly as you mentioned, I have done everything plus other stuff that's not interesting where it's not part of my role. Like I organized offsides, for example, cause we didn't have HR, right? So someone has to organize the offsides. It was me. Cause I've done again, remember when I told you before, I've done corporate management events. So I know how to organize. I know how to organize offsides.

43:00 So all of the skills I gather throughout my career, they always come in handy all the time. The moments you expect the least, they suddenly is like, oh, I've done that before. So yes, that's the beauty of working on a startup. You learn a lot, you do a lot. If you don't do it, no one else will do it for you because there is no one else. We are pretty thin and...

43:29 I think it's a fantastic experience to have, but again, and going back once again to hospitality, I was okay with that. I was solving 10,000 issues at the same time with people screaming at me with snow, with everything. So it's okay. You know, I've been in a more stressful job in hospitality, so I can do 10 roles.

43:56 10 rolls at the time in a startup, I'm fine with that. Yeah, this might be a difficult question to answer because of how many different things you were doing and what you were responsible for. But in terms of that, there is a phrase that I'm looking for in terms of the environment you are in being amazing for development and learning. There is a phrase for it, but it isn't coming to mind.

44:23 In that environment, what were the highlights in terms of what you learned then in that three and a half year period that you took forward? What are those like key learnings from doing all of those different things? Yeah. So I would say that because I was doing three different departments, mainly, I really understand how each one works. And I understand.

44:51 the pains and the priorities of each department. So, and we're gonna go back to this later, but now at AppCloud, I'm just head of business development. So I only have business development, but because I've done marketing before, I collaborate very well with marketing. You know, they are speaking to a head of business development, who knows marketing, which makes the conversations much more efficient. So I think that...

45:21 It's easier for me to not work in silos because when I work and I will speak to other departments, I understand their priorities, I understand their pains, and I understand that my priority might not be theirs and I understand how to work around that. And I would say that, I mean, I have a lot of biggest, a lot of learnings from doing so many things, but I would say that this is the biggest one I take.

45:50 because I've done so many different departments. I know what's being, what's like to be in their shoes. So it's, it's, the procession's easier. It's, again, like it's far easier in a startup to have the, I guess the option, the capabilities, the environment to be able to step into different roles. Well, I think I, I'm fortunate enough to have worked

46:20 startup, you're talking, you're looking at around 35 heads scaled up to around 70 heads in the, in the time that I was there before I left. So I came in as a demand Jen manager, um, within three months I was head of marketing and then I ended up sitting next to head of sales and head of CS, which meant that the three of us were literally sat next to each other. And that was, um, one of

46:49 incubators, the phrase I was looking for the word. So it was the perfect incubator. That's a good word. Yeah, that's the phrase I was looking for. I knew it would come to me, but it was the perfect incubator for understanding their role and how marketing played into sales and how marketing played into CS. It was like, right, I would love success stories to use in ads. Okay, I got so I got CS sit next to me. CS can only give me success stories if their sales are pitching and selling to the right customers who will get value from the tool.

47:19 So it's this nice like cycle of marketing, bring in try and bring in the right lead sales only sell to the right people that will get value. CS get given a good customer and a good account that we can actually help and like, oh, it comes back to marketing, because I can then use it as a success story and ads, I can reference the testimonials and things like that. So it's the perfect incubator. And I would you would you suggest if people can to try and work in a startup at some point in their career?

47:50 It's also a lesson of, you know, humble humbleness, you know, because startups are really rough, because you can die anytime, right? So you can, you always in the verge of like, we have run away for the next six months. Yeah, just to clarify, not the professional might die. Yeah, yeah, not the professional. I was like, we have worked in very different startups. I didn't fear for my life at any point.

48:19 I did, but in hospitality, not in the stardom. But I, yeah, in the stardom, like the company can just get bankrupt very quickly. And the dreaded word runway. Runway. Runway is a dreaded word. Yes. Also, you...

48:41 You don't have the luxury of, oh, I have money for this tool and I can hire these. No, no, no. You have to work. You have to make it happen with what you have. No, no budget for fancy tools or to hire an assistant. Um, a lot of things if you, you know, we, we all depending on each other and. But in, in a bigger company, I need to wait for marketing, customer success, whatever.

49:08 Like there is like, if one thing is to happen, you need to do it yourself because no one will, you know, there is no one there to do it. Right. So, um, so if I want to, for example, in my startup, when I was hiring for customer success managers or for business development people, I was the one screen in the 700 CVs a day, because there is no HR. And if I don't do it, there is no, you know, I don't get candidates cause no one will do that for me, so I have to do it. Um.

49:36 So, so, so you learn a lot and you appreciate things more because when, when you go to a company with a bit more resources, you are, you complain less as well. It's like, Oh my God, I can't believe these dad is like, it's like, Oh my God, no, I have someone screening the CVs for me. I just need to do the second and third interview. That's amazing. You know, you were appreciative as well. You know, Oh my God, no, I have this, I have to do with pen and paper. That's amazing. You know, well, people are like, Oh, it's horrible. Like, dude, that's worse.

50:05 You know, yeah, I would, I would, yeah, I 100% agree with you that you will probably be very, very stressed. You will probably have worse sleep. You'll have much worse bags under your eyes. You will work longer hours. But for that year, two years, three years, however long you decide to stay.

50:31 Oh, my word. Do you like in that two years, two and a half years of my career that I was at that startup, I learned more than in the previous 10 years that came before that. And now I've moved to a scale up. I'm learning a whole different like, vibe in there is it's like a startup, but you've got a bit more process, a few more people. Yeah. Yeah, I love like, now I've done the startup a scale up. I'm like, right, this is this is, this is the nice little area to be. But yeah.

51:00 you've got to, again, it links back to that. Do something hard. Startup life is hard. Like it's risky. It's volatile. But the good the good moments far outweigh the bad. Yeah, so definitely. I regret nothing. I had some time. Yeah, 100%. Go and spend two years. Do two years. One's not enough. No, no, no, no. You really need to feel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to live it. Yeah, you got to live it for a couple of years if you can.

51:30 go and do a startup because you will any other job that you join after that startup, you will literally walk in and be like, why do I know so much more than the people around me or like, why can I do that? And they can't even do that. And that's their job. Like you will, you will have these skills and the aptitude and these traits where you're like, wow, okay. The bar is pretty low. And then you need to be patient because it's like, give me that. I can do that in two seconds. Why are you taking me so long? Ah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

51:58 Yeah, that's that is one thing actually the pace of a startup is unrivaled as in the you have to change adapt, release, develop Yeah, which is so so it's amazing because of how quick you can do things and learn bad because there's obviously a lot of mistakes to happen, but you have to get used to return into some semblance of normality with where things are a little bit slower. But yeah, 100% in a nutshell.

52:25 Go and try and work at a startup for a couple of years. Yes. Right. Okay. So you did, um, you ended up as like director of growth looking sales marketing. That was, um, how three and a half years. Yeah. Um, there seems to be a nice light pattern in terms of how long you look to spend a couple of years. Try to, to, you know, and again, this is maybe a good tip for someone listening to a podcast, like when I, when I look for a job, I want to stay long.

52:53 long-term for many reasons, because it looks better in your CV. If you jump a lot, it's not good. Doesn't look good on you, but also you need a certain amount of time to be good at your job, the ramp time. Right? So if you change a lot, you're not going to be, you know, you won't excel. You don't have time. And also it's, I mean, finding jobs, interviewing, it's stressful, right? So you need some stability as well. So, so when I interview, I'm also assessing the company, right?

53:22 And if I see red flags, even if the salary is great, I don't take the offer. If I think that I cannot work with this manager, having a manager with whom you can work with is super important, I don't take the job. So, so, so, so I always take jobs where I think I can be at least one year minimum. And I've been always more than that. So that's something that usually people should evaluate in the interview is.

53:52 Can I, do I see anything that's, you know, that's a red flag for me? Yeah, it works both ways. Like I've been- It works both ways. Do you want to work with me? Do I work with you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, as an employee in terms of that application process, yes, you're looking for a new job, but you do have a degree of power nowadays because it's very, very challenging to find good people. Yes.

54:19 When you come across a good candidate at the end of the day, like as a company, you want to put your best foot forward as a company. And the only reason I sort of put it like that we've, we're, we've just offered. Um, obviously this, we're recording this in January. We've just, um, offered a, uh, role to a website manager. And I think, um, let's hope it all goes all well before this episode goes live. And we do actually get it through and everything, but we, um,

54:47 the candidate asked a good number of questions at the end, we were like, right, the tables have turned. I said, you asked me some questions. And it was basically like, Oh, what's your opinion on this? How do you approach this? Like, what's the relationship between you and the CEO? Like, um, what's the relationship between you and your manager? Like, what's the culture like? And I really enjoyed the fact that they were quizzing me and I kind of like, I was like, Oh my God, I should, I should have worn a shirt and a tie to a, to, to, to an interview where I'm the interviewer. Um,

55:17 But that's good. Like confidence to challenge the, um, challenge the potential employer that you're, you're connecting with. Yep. And you have to, otherwise you might, you know, you might end up in a situation that you, you know, you've done all the paperwork and then you are in the first week and I was like, Oh, the first week is already not great. Yeah. You, you, you gotta be spending 40 to 50 hours a week.

55:46 Uh, sitting behind a desk. Yeah, exactly. So for the sake of your own sanity and for the sake of potentially thousands of hours of your life, do your homework in the same way when you're buying a car and it's used, you do your due diligence. You'll put it through a car checker, car reg checker to make sure it's got no outstanding finance and it's not been crashed. Like, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, that's a very, very good piece of advice. Okay. So three and a half years. Um.

56:15 Why, again, it sounds like things were going well, you in the, it was the right company. You were learning tons. Why did you decide to leave or what was, how come you made a move? Uh, it was a very, it's an easy, very straightforward answer. The company got acquired and I mentioned to my CEO at the time that they gets acquired, I'm leaving. Um, so he knew that, um, he still tried. What was the reason?

56:45 As in why did you pretty openly say I'm leaving once it gets acquired? Because I've done my mission, I've learned, I was happy. You should leave when things are good, not when things are bad. And I felt that I've accomplished my mission, time for a new one, three years. I've done from pre-seed to seed to hiring to tech.

57:13 recession to laying off to getting acquired. I'm good, you know, like I'm good. I'm ready for the next challenge. And, um, and I, I live with the smile in my face, you know? So it was a good acquisition in the, in the sense of, uh, you could have stayed on and there would have been me and they tried to make me stay and they, then they raised the offer for my salary. Um, so yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, I had my.

57:43 place was absolutely safe and guaranteed. But I said, no, because again, I knew I, if I would have accepted, I'd stay on for two, three months while looking for a new job. And as I mentioned, I don't like to start something that will end in a month or two. When I, when I accept an offer is for a longer, or I want it to be for a longer.

58:12 period of time if everything goes well or at least okay. So I knew that I, I was not very excited to continue working there. So I just let's make it easy for easier for everyone. I'm not going to stay two months in the new company because it got acquired meaning I have to learn new colleagues, new culture, new processes for what? To live in three months. Nah. Okay. Yeah, that's sensible. Like I can respect that, um, respect that decision. So.

58:40 Talk to me about the journey from that role to the role you're in today. Because it wasn't necessarily going from that role to this role today, was it? You did other things in between or are still doing, right? Yeah, so this was May, this last year, 2024, when the company got acquired. And, you know, by then I was working already for 12 years with no break at all, like two weeks in a row for a holiday max.

59:10 Most of the time, 10 days. Uh, so I was like, I'm tired. So I left without having anything. No, in line. I didn't have an offer, uh, or I didn't look for a job. I was like, I'm going to enjoy summer while finishing my book. So I just fit just, just two days ago, I, I sent a final version to the publisher. So I was like, I have to finish my book.

59:36 I would like to do some consulting on the side on the meantime, because again, I want to learn faster and more about different industries and prospecting in different industries and while look for a new role. And now that I've done mostly all of the revenue roles, I can't executive.

59:58 business development, enablement, customer success, marketing. Now I know, I know for the first time in my life, I know exactly what I like and what I don't like, and I knew I wanted to do either growth, content marketing or business development. Like, so I only applied for heads of these and a bit of enablement as well. I also like enablement.

01:00:22 So I knew I didn't want to do customer success. I knew I didn't want to do more on the closing side, management, these kinds of things. And yeah, so I was enjoying summer while applying and the role at App Cloud was perfect because it was exactly what I wanted. The role description, exactly what I wanted. Great company culture.

01:00:48 I liked my boss and the team who interviewed me again. I was like, can I work with these people? Yes, I can. Fully remote, which is a must for me because I dislike going to offices. I work very well at home. It was, it take all the boxes, you know? So I had other offers, but this one take all the boxes. So let's go. Oh yeah, it's...

01:01:14 I've not taken a career break, but it's definitely something that... You should. Yeah, yeah, no, it's something that I think I would like to do at some point. I don't know when it will be. Maybe...

01:01:24 To be honest, I only took three months and I was working these three months. So I cannot really call it a career break. Well, an unstructured... Yeah, yeah. I didn't do the three months backpacking in Asia, you know? Like, I was like... You didn't go and find yourself in the forest. I found myself a long time ago. I'm good. So, yes, so I was extremely busy. And my mother and my friends, they were so confused.

01:01:54 I think you're unemployed. And I'm like, yes, but. Just the nature of my personality is I hate. I love being busy. Me too. And I hate, I can't do more than a few hours of nothing. Like even on the day where I'm like, right, I'm gonna have a slob day. I'm gonna do nothing, which is good for stress and it's good for whatever. I sit there and I'm like, I need to go for a walk. So I'll, I don't know, I'll walk to the shop and get something that I didn't need.

01:02:24 Uh, or I'll be like, right, I'm going to the gym. I'm like, I know, I know it was a rest day, but I'm going to go to the gym. So it makes me think like, you know, 30 years down the line, 25 years, whenever it is that I get to retire, I'm going to need something to keep me busy when I'm in retirement, cause I will be so bored. Um, and I don't mean like kids or a dog. I mean, like I need, I need some sort of hobby, like restoring cars. Yeah. I know me too. I mean, the sofa.

01:02:53 My brain is already thinking, you know, like, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, no, I, yeah, I can recommend the career break, even if it's a productive one, like the one I had, um, yeah. Okay. Right. Korea, um, Korea with a whistle stop tour of, uh, the 10 to 12 years. Now let's do the quick fire roundup then. So in terms of your top three tips for moving up the ladder or just the top three tips for like career development, what would those be? So I would say like.

01:03:22 Um, if you know what you, what your next step should look like. So, you know, imagine I'm a BDR, I want to be an account executive or I'm a BDR and I want to be a team lead. You need to think which skills you don't have yet that's needed for that job. Right. Um, because, um, I've seen a lot, for example, um, people say, Hey, I'm the best performer. I should be the manager. Fair.

01:03:51 I'm not saying this is not logical, it is, but many times the top performers are not the best managers, right? And so before thinking, okay, which skills do I need to get that role? And can I already learn some of them already? Can I let my manager know that that's what I want to be? And I can already learn, take courses, whatever it's needed to get the skills for when the opportunity arises?

01:04:21 It doesn't happen. We really like you. You were a fantastic BDR, but we need someone with these knowledge or experience. And then suddenly you didn't climb up the career ladder. So I really recommend taking extra projects, um, or learn something for the role that you think you want to do. So if you want to be an account executive, maybe start doing some discovery on your own, taking some discovery courses, you know, so, so already, um,

01:04:50 don't expect to get promoted just just like that. It doesn't. Yeah, it's interesting. I would say on the whole, the especially in sales, the top performers almost never make good managers. I don't know why it is. Maybe it's because in order to be. Yeah. In order to be a true top performer in sales, you do like that, but you do need to be a little bit selfish. You do need to have a certain.

01:05:18 not lack of empathy, but an, uh, an awareness that you can't have too much empathy in sales because it's just a deal, right? Uh, that's, that's not, that's not on the whole, but I would say, yeah, largely like the top, top 1% of billers don't make, uh, good, good. And I think that's a great bridge to the next thing I would say, which is if you want to climb up, right? So let's say team lead manager, director. You need.

01:05:47 Obviously to do a good job, right? You need to also deserve to get promoted. You know, like if you don't hit targets suddenly or manager that also doesn't make sense, right? So you need to do a great job, but not at all costs, which is exactly what you're saying. You need to learn to compromise and to communicate with other departments because that's the biggest chunk of being a manager or a director. And if you're not good at it,

01:06:15 and you want to climb the career ladder, you should start learning that skill. The empathy that you mentioned, the give and take, the, you know, the understanding, the challenges that the other department has, the priorities that they are not the same as yours. Um, trying to find a compromise within departments. Yeah. It's like, it's like, it's any healthy relationship, right? Yeah. Be a wife, your husband, your boyfriend, your girlfriend. Yeah, exactly. But.

01:06:44 being good at your job and not at any cost, extremely important to climb up the career ladder in my opinion. Yeah, and on the whole, that's something. You have people who are horrible people and they are in the industry level, but I also want that to stop, you know. Yeah, I think that tends to be in more traditional industries and again, it tends to be a generational thing.

01:07:05 I think it's getting, cause I remember back in my first job out of university, there were some absolute horrendous people in senior leadership positions. Vile, I don't even mind saying, I'm not going to say any names, but like there were vile people, like they should not have been allowed to work with anyone else. They were terrible managers, terrible people, bipolar tendencies that were just, you know,

01:07:31 narcissistic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, manipulative, but it seems to be getting less and less common, which is nice. And I think on the whole, senior leaders seem to have a much better, much better understanding of, you know, it is a human you're managing and they have stress and they have anxiety and you need to create a healthy working environment, which is great. Okay. Third tip, what's the third tip? So this is something that I didn't do consciously.

01:07:58 Uh, but that was, um, something that my boss from my previous company, so the CEO of the startup where I was the director of growth, he mentioned from very early on when I was still sales and development consultant, that that was something that for him was extremely important and I think if you want to climb the career ladder, you need to, I did it unconsciously, but if, but for me it's a really good tip, which is don't raise problems if you don't have solutions with you.

01:08:28 And if you can solve them yourself, even better. So, so, so one thing is raising a problem. The other thing is complaining. So always try to go to your colleagues and to leadership and saying, we have a bottleneck here, we have an issue, we have a problem. I think this is because of this, this and that. I think if you do this, this and that, this might get better. This is a way more constructive way.

01:08:56 to go about things. And if you want to climb, that's what they expecting from you as well as a director. I cannot go to the CCO, I report to the chief commercial officer. And as a director of business development, I cannot go to him and say, our tools, our tech stack is not good.

01:09:22 No, like, you know, I have to go to him and say, Hey, I don't think we have the right tech stack because this, this and that. I think we should do this, this and that. Let me do a free trial. Let me compare results. I will take care of that. I think by the end of blah, blah, blah, we have distorted. He, he doesn't care. Like, you know, it's my problem. I need to solve it. That's why I was hired for. So, so if you already start having this attitude, right. So.

01:09:52 If you go, for example, you are a BDR and I always did that unconsciously. So when I was a BDR and again, to when I went to, from BDR to senior BDR to team lead, the, what I would say the main reason was, Hey, our onboarding is not the greatest, but I've built these, these, these, these, these, these presentations. I'm happy to onboard the next BDRs.

01:10:18 And that's a much different conversation. And if the team is like, do cool. I, I, I don't really enjoy doing that. If you can do that and, uh, you know, and, and people feel, you know, more comfortable in, in their roles and they're happier, like go for it, you know? So, so definitely don't raise problems without at least mentioning some sort of solution. Yeah. Probably. You said as you move, um, further up the ladder, ultimately.

01:10:46 businesses want problem solvers, that you're being brought in to either solve a problem Yeah Or to improve something or to scale something and they don't want to have to do that Help you do that. You're being brought in to do it, right? So Okay, any career regrets today I have to say in general in life. I don't have regrets because when things don't go well

01:11:14 If I had fun or if I learned something, I'm okay with that. I think it's only regret if I didn't learn, I didn't have fun. I didn't, you know, that's, that's a waste of time. So I think in general, I don't have biggest regrets. However, um, that being said, I think I would, I should have left the tourism industry one year earlier than what I did. And the reason is.

01:11:41 I was already ready to move. I already wanted to go into tech, but I was promised by leadership, a race and a different title and different challenges with no timeline. You will have it. You will have it next month. You will have it. It's been a year. So I stayed because I believed in these promises, which is something, you know, that you learn in your career. You know, that's a rookie mistake. And

01:12:11 I and I that that was the wrong reason for staying if you say, you know, I'm not learning but I'm having fun. That's okay. It's fine. I'm not learning but I have a great salary or I don't have a great salary but I really enjoy doing that's also fine. But I stayed even though I was not happy with my salary anymore and I was not learning anymore. I wanted to to learn from that industry but they made me empty promises and I stayed because of that.

01:12:40 I think it was a wrong reason to stay. But again, do I regret? I've learned my lesson. Yeah, you, you, you learn, you learn more from the things that don't go your way. Whether that's a failure, whether that's something that wasn't as optimal as it could have been. Uh, like we, we've, we've just launched the streaming platform that this episode will go out on and we, we learned a lot in the last month. Let's put it that way. You know,

01:13:08 on the outside, people are like, Oh, what a lovely streaming platform that just launched on the inside. Oh, you know, it was tough, like, but we now when we do a new season or a new series, it's a lot easier that it was the first time around. Yeah. So don't be afraid to fail. I think that's why I think. Yeah, I think Stephen Bartlett in his book, 33 laws of business and life, I think he said fail, fail hard and fail often or something like that, like

01:13:36 look for failure because if you, if you look for failure and you fail, you at least you tried something and you know, you, you're going to learn from it. The only piece of advice caveat to that is don't keep failing and not learning. Cause that's the definition of madness. And if you can avoid failures because of better planning and because you've done enough research, then you should. Right. So, so I think that is a balance. Let's not

01:14:02 You know, glamorize failure, but let's not be afraid of it either. So try to find the balance, you know, between both. Yeah. Do you, uh, yeah. Okay. Do you don't go into something with the expectation of, no, I want to fail 17 times before I get it right. Yeah. No, that's fair. That's fair. Okay. So what you've been enrolled for five months. So this is a pre potentially a premature question, but what's next? What do you see being the next step? Whether that be.

01:14:28 developing your current role or something in five years? What's what you think is the next step? Um, so yes, I, I definitely for now I want to stay where I am because as you know, by my track record, I stay usually long in companies and I have a lot of, I love my team, my team is absolutely fantastic. And I want to make sure that we keep developing further. And when I feel that I've done everything.

01:14:55 I could, then they developed. And when I feel I've accomplished my mission, I will leave. That's usually how it works for me. So after I accomplished my mission at UpCloud, for now I think I wanna go back to freelancing. So I did that three months test. It went really well. And I think I would like to go back to a longer period of time.

01:15:23 doing consulting for business development. I wrote a book about that. The one that I mentioned before that I just submitted to the publisher two days ago. So it's about prospecting, LinkedIn called Calling, email, how to build a business development, the department from scratch, how to do a good onboarding, you know, all of the things we were talking in this episode in Portuguese in my native language. So it's only available in Portuguese.

01:15:52 And, and with that, I want to help small businesses, medium, small solo partners, and, um, and I wanted to do some consulting on that side as well. So, um, yeah, are you allowed to, you allowed to tell me what the book's called in English? Obviously. Cause I mean, it's still, so I am, even though I'm not sure if this still will, this is the title I suggested the working title, the working title. So I suggested this title.

01:16:21 I'm not sure if it's going to be the final one, but yeah, I can share. So the main title is, sales to those who think cannot sell or not, who think they don't have any talent to sell. And then the subtitle is like prospecting with the help of AI, because I also give some AI tips how to make your work. I like the title. Yeah, I like the title. Because I want people who are not in sales to relate themselves. So this is not the book just for people working already in business development.

01:16:50 This is for anyone who would like to sell something, you know, whether it's a project or you know. What's the rough, uh, published date that you're working towards? April, May. Okay. So this episode will go out at some point in February or March. So not long now, um, until you can get the book. Um, what's the end goal? Like, where do you see the end of your career being, or where do you want to reach before the end of your career? I, you know, I, I want to have more time for my hobbies.

01:17:19 So the end of my career would be make the same amount of money with less time spent on working. But I would like to do some, yeah, spending my days doing some consulting, because I really enjoy business development and consulting and helping smaller businesses. I really, really enjoy that. But I also would like to spend more time in my artistic projects. I want to...

01:17:47 write other books that are not technical books. I want to write fiction, I want to learn how to draw, I want to you know I want to go more I want to have more time to do these things which so far which is normal and I think it's healthy that in the beginning of a career you don't have time for any of those. I think that's really important. Yeah no we touched on retirement.

01:18:10 Uh, hopefully it's before retirement that you get more time for those things. I want to enjoy that while I'm still youngish. Yeah. What, what, yeah. What, what's, you've got the health and the well-being and the energy to, to, to enjoy those things. Right. Well, that brings us to the ends. We've got a few minutes in our, a lot of time left, which is, which is perfect timing. So thank you very much for joining me. No, thank you for having me. Um, and for those listening, we hope you tune back in if you aren't already subscribed to stream.

01:18:39 Um, please subscribe if you're listening on podcast platforms, please follow. Um, and we will catch you in the next episode.