Where, where, where has my little fron been? I've been sat on this sofa waiting for you since the 5th of January. I'd pick you up, I'd put you in a tub of margarine, and I'd say, "There you are, I'll be back soon." Wow. And I'd slip, and I'd say, "Speaking of slippy, it's the 6th of January." Wow. I like what you did there. I didn't know what was happening, and I'm wondering if we're ever going to get the test results back to find out what's wrong. Yeah, one day.

Okay, so I'm going to hit you with something today. It's from our old friend Marcus Aelius. Wow, what a king. What a king. A person who doesn't know what the universe is, doesn't know where they are, a person who doesn't know their purpose in life, doesn't know who they are or what the universe is, a person who doesn't know any of these things, doesn't know why they are here. So what to make of people who seek or avoid the praise of those who have no knowledge of where or who they are. Wow. They were so clever, weren't they? We think we're clever, but they knew things. They knew something.

So I think what Marcus is talking about here is seeking validation, and I think what he's really saying is you're often seeking validation from people who haven't figured it out. You've not figured it out, and you're looking for validation from people who also haven't figured it out. And I think, as salespeople, what we can do is we can talk a lot about the rejections, right? People talk about being armor-proof for the rejections, but probably most dangerous—maybe not most, but certainly even in terms of how dangerous it could be—is also getting too high on the validation as well, or certainly seeking it with those people-pleasing behaviors.

Where do you see it show up? I sometimes feel that in sales, people make fake wins because they become addicts to that dopamine of validation or praise. That can sound like we've done it before where you'll hear in different businesses, people get off and go, "I've just had an amazing call with Tesco," and everyone goes, "Well done! You sat down with Tesco! That's bloody brilliant!" But what did you do? You sat down with Tesco. But the more you kind of big it up, that's valid, but is it? Is it a win? What is your job as a salesperson? To sell. So I see some people make fake wins to get the praise, and more often than not, it's praise from a sales manager. People seek it. The reason it typically exists—and this might be quite eye-opening for people—is it goes back to that inner child. It goes back to that little girl or boy that probably wasn't loved enough by mommy or daddy, or they brought a photo or a drawing home one day and they said, "Look at this!" and they kind of probably got ignored. Now, what they're doing in their work environment is saying, "Look at this cold call I did," and the boss is going, "Wow! This is going to make me really rich!" But it's seeking validation for the wrong reasons.

It goes back to that why, doesn't it? I mean, Simon Sinek talks about it, the Stoics talk about it. There must be something in it. But having that why you do something and removing that praise from other people, that's going to get you to the next chapter. Yeah, exactly. How many salespeople have we interviewed where we've said, "Look, sales is one of those jobs that brings out the skeletons in the closet?" Any rejection, any validation, anything that you've got that's hidden in there from childhood will definitely come out in this job. You're speaking to strangers, you don't want to be rejected, you certainly want to be liked by them. All those things are going to come out. How many people have interviewed that have said, "Yeah, I'm cool, I don't struggle with any of that, I'm fine, I'm absolutely rejection-proof."

I think often some of the people who've been quite vehement in saying, "I'm the guy, I'm really strong, I'm rejection-proof, I'm so tough" have been the people who are actually the most emotional and had the most rocky moments. There's that veneer there, isn't it? I'm signaling, "I'm the tough guy who can take it," but suddenly they're the downtrodden ones. One of the things that really worked for me in my career, it was a bit of a "come-to-Jesus" moment, was when I realized that it's all right for people to say no. My job as a salesperson, as much as it is to get people to a yes, is also to get people to a no. Where you fail as a salesperson should be when you're left with people who've ghosted you. Think it over, might do, maybe. Those types of things are where the failure is. The failure is not in someone saying no.

So actually, giving someone lots of room to say no in a sales process works really well. One of the things I like to do is at the start of a discovery call, I say, "Look, before we jump in, I'm just going to give you all the bad news. I want this to be really ethical for you. I definitely don't want to waste any of your time. I'm just going to give you all the bad news." And for salespeople at home who are listening to this, and business people, if you write down the top three reasons people don't move forward with you and put those right at the start of the sales process instead, you'll find a lot of magic happens.

For us, it might be, "Look, if you work with us, you're probably going to have to commit to working with us for a year. Some people don't want to do that." "No, no, that's fine. I'm quite happy to do that." "Okay, and probably the second reason is we're quite expensive. We're going to cost anywhere from X to Y. That might not be what you had in mind as a budget." "No, no, no. That's fine. That's probably about what we had in mind." So what I've done there is I've completely taken away the objections. But if there are any red flags, someone has got half an hour back in the diary. They don't leave with a bad taste in the mouth, and you've not left thinking, "Oh, where was my validation?" Or actually, "They really like me. I've got to catch up with them next week." You're left with a really well-managed emotional state and sales process.

It goes back to those fake wins, doesn't it? Because our job and what we focus on is, "Can I get a deal over the line if it's the right fit?" We want to sell, but if you're creating those fake wins, where you say, "Well, I couldn't go to my boss and say I told them all the reasons they chose not to go. I only had a five-minute conversation with Tesco. He's going to think I'm a loser. I've pushed away that business." That's not what you're doing. You're being in control. And the theme is control, and remaining in control. I'm going to say it one more time for the listener at home—control.

There's a beautiful phrase, and you were talking about something there, and it kind of sparked it: "It's not a sin to get a no, it's a sin to take a long time to get a no." Oh, I like that a lot. I like that a lot. Yeah, I think your sales process—there's a lot of reasons for someone not to work with you, and actually, only a few for them to work with you. So, if you think of your sales process, let's just get everything on the table—all the reasons not to work with us. Let's get them on the table and let's take them away. It's much better for the prospect to deal with that. And if you find your process is very much going for yes, it can feel quite pressurized, but you find it's going for no, you'll be amazed how hard it is to really push someone to a no.

Have you tried all the free things that you could be doing instead of working with us? "Yeah, I've tried all those, they don't work." "Okay, we've got a lot of competitors who are in the... Why would you have come to us?" "Well, no, no. I've tried them, I'm ready to come." And suddenly, you have a conversation that's not only no pressure, but you're finding what that true intrinsic motivation is. Or, to your point, you're hitting a point where you give them a good idea, and you know, "Have you tried all the referrals that you could be speaking to, for example?" "No, we've not done that." "I tell you what, why don't you go away and do that first, and then come back to it?"

Yeah, and it's a much more ethical process. Much more ethical. And from a human behavior standpoint, sales is so interesting because when we think about your own mindset and your own perception and all those things within, you've got to remember that the people you're into, they're bringing their inner child to work. They're bristling with pride, vanity, and ego, and all of these things that you've also got. So, as much as you're trying to balance your relationship with validation and rejection, they probably are as well so they might come to that call and want to give you a count to fit yes because they're a people pleaser as well.

So by allowing them to say no everybody wins do you know what I mean they feel more relaxed.

Wow. we're really doing something today. Aren't we? Yeah, really good. Okay.

Well I've been Jack Frimston. I've been Zach Thompson.

Remember you will die and rhythm truly is a dancer.